Witches Found: The Medium of Life with Jacqueline Beaumont

In this TWO PART episode of Witches Found, Amy sits down with Jacqueline Beaumont to discuss Bio Art, Performance Art, Bio-hacking, Gender, and the Future of Humanity.

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Jacqui on Instagram

Speculative Life Bio Lab on Instagram

Alex and WhiteFeather on Instagram

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In case you missed it, here’s our IMBOLC Special where we met Jacqui for the first time with WhiteFeather, Alex and Vanessa in the Lab:

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Here's the article from Time magazine I mentioned where a Trans Man discusses how differently he was treated as a man in business vs as a woman:

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And I’m genuinely excited to have an excuse to post these links: Leigh Bowery original performance at Wigstock (1993), compared to film version with Anohni replacement music/vocals.

Jacqui Beaumont

You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch.

You must be a witch. 

[00:00:10] Amy Torok: We first met Jackie Beaumont when White Feather Hunter invited us to her lab to meet her coven of witches and the magic and science that they create there. I absolutely can't wait to have Whitefeather back on the mic when she returns to Montreal later this summer. So definitely keep an eye out for that.

She's the original witch in a lab, and I can't wait to hear about the travels that she's been on, spreading her bold, audacious witchcraft. But I wanted to talk to Jackie about something specific that we touched on in that Imbolc episode. If you haven't listened to it, go check it out, and I put it in the show notes for this episode.

And that's just this notion of womanhood. Jackie, as an artist, scientist, and trans woman, I think has a very important perspective on what it means to be a woman in 2019. We talked for a long time, so I split the episode into two parts. Both are available right now. So here's part one of my conversation with Jackie Beaumont.

Hi, 

[00:01:12] Jacqueline Beaumont: I'm Jacqueline Beaumont. People also call me Jackie. I am a BFA student at Concordia University in Fibers and Material Practices, as well as a member of the Milieu Institute in the Speculative Biolab. So that's probably where, hopefully, a few of you have heard of me before. Yes 

[00:01:33] Amy Torok: I'm just going to interrupt real quick for our listeners who don't know, Jackie was on our Imbolc, Imbolc.

Special where we spoke to her and a couple other, her coven members in the lab at Concordia University. The episode was wildly successful, so I'm going to assume that a lot of people who are listening to this have heard that if you have not, I will put a direct link to that episode in the show notes for this episode so that you can get all caught up on what we're talking about here, carry on with your intro.

[00:02:02] Jacqueline Beaumont: Yeah, yeah. So, I I'm a bio artist. I'm a fiber artist. I do performance. I'm going to 

[00:02:08] Amy Torok: stop you again because I'm going to assume that a lot of our listeners don't know what 

[00:02:12] Jacqueline Beaumont: a bio artist is or does. Yeah. So a bio artist is an artist where our medium is biotechnology. We work with the medium of life.

. So whether the medium 

[00:02:25] Amy Torok: of life, are y'all hearing that? Yeah. life is a 

[00:02:28] Jacqueline Beaumont: medium. Yeah. So, so yeah, it some, some people have referred to it as like Michelangelo had the chisel and Bio have the gene. So GENE ? Yes. The GENE. Mm-Hmm. . So. That, that's kind of like a very rudimentary introduction to bioart but, yeah, so we in bioart we work with anything from bacteria to cellulose to phytology or algae Blood.

Yeah, blood. Tissue. Mycology. Yeah, all of that stuff. So, it's a really cool intersection where art and science meet, and luckily for me, and My little coven up at the lab. We also have it interjecting with spirituality. And sort of like connecting to the earth. Not just on a biological level, but on a more spiritual level.

So, yeah. So you're doing your 

[00:03:17] Amy Torok: BFA, which is Bachelor of Fine Art. How did you get 

[00:03:20] Jacqueline Beaumont: into the lab? Yeah. Basically I just kind of Tried my, tried my best and just like worked and worked and I sort of talked to a few people and they're like, Oh, wow, you really need to go and try and talk to the milieu people.

See if you can get in. And so I got introduced into the textiles and materiality cluster which is where I still am. And then basically through me talking to people, I got introduced to Alex. So yeah that's kind of how I got introduced to the milieu institute. And since then I've just been I practically live in that building, so I don't really leave.

When I 

[00:03:58] Amy Torok: interrupted you, you were about to say you're also a performance 

[00:04:00] Jacqueline Beaumont: artist. Yes. What is that about? Yeah, definitely. So, performance for me is it's an extension of my It's an extension of my performative body, it's an extension of my expressiveness as a queer body in space. But also I think in terms of, like, what I use it for, it's very my performances are very ritual based.

So, they, they do come from a place of, if I'm performing as something else, I'm performing as an entity, like a, like a non human entity. So that's, exactly. A creature sonic. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, that's where I kind of started dabbling into drag culture. And I've been performing. And I'm using air quotations here, drag for for a few, for a few months now, actually, almost a year now.

And For our listeners who don't know, you are a trans woman. Yes, I am a trans woman. That is also the hot topic. For those of you who are trying to figure out 

[00:05:02] Amy Torok: what we're talking about so drag as a trans person is obviously a different 

[00:05:05] Jacqueline Beaumont: animal. Very, very different. Yeah, for sure. I, I've never really wanted to perform as a hyper glamazon Just this beautiful essence that is like a hyperized version of femininity.

The Miss Universe pageant. Exactly. I've never really identified with that. I do appreciate it to its fullest potential, but I think that there's so many different ways that drag can express itself. And so for me, I use it as an extension of my spiritual practice. I use it as a way to help to sort of embody a more political side to my spirituality as well, where I can, I can show the, the damage that humanity is doing to the earth in a more, in a more performance based way where I am embodying her and and then her being the earth.

The earth. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. So I, I do a lot of performance based pieces around that as that spirit. Can you describe like 

[00:06:05] Amy Torok: what an audience member might 

[00:06:06] Jacqueline Beaumont: actually be seeing? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, one of my more recent ones was one that I did for a party called Unicorn. Mm-Hmm. , U-N-I-K-O-R-N.

Mm-Hmm. . It's a fantastic party that me and my friends are. Doing in Montreal here, and it's, it's very multidisciplinary in terms of what drag you're gonna see, which is fantastic. It's not just, again, those hyper glamazons that are singing along to Katy Perry. And again, for 

[00:06:34] Amy Torok: our listeners who, like, know nothing about the world of drag in general, I mean, yeah, drag is an art form in the way that painting is an art form.

Form, 

[00:06:41] Jacqueline Beaumont: definitely 

[00:06:42] Amy Torok: you can have abstract painters, realistic 

[00:06:44] Jacqueline Beaumont: painter, hyperrealism. That's, and drag is the same. Yeah, that's a perfect, perfect way of describing it. So, and what, and what's frustrating as, as a performance artist who uses drag as one aspect of their performance is that most people will see someone who considers themselves to be doing drag.

And they'll assume that well, you kind of. Due to society's notion of what drag is nowadays it is, you kind of have to be a gay man. Who is performing as a hyper feminine woman. And If you want to get booked on a RuPaul's Drag Race. Exactly, you gotta, yeah, exactly. So, And this 

[00:07:26] Amy Torok: is what happens when things go mainstream.

You get watered 

[00:07:29] Jacqueline Beaumont: down. Definitely. For better or for worse. Usually for worse. Most certainly, yeah. So, We're super thankful to 

[00:07:35] Amy Torok: RuPaul and we love you for like, creating an industry around drag that was missing. 

[00:07:39] Jacqueline Beaumont: But of course You gotta try a little harder. Yeah. Yeah. So, and smarter. I think, I think that's another big thing is that most people don't realize that, like, sometimes it's not working harder, it's working smarter.

And realizing that drag is such an enigmatic and endlessly beautiful thing. 

[00:07:59] Amy Torok: People, specifically women themselves. Exactly. There's so many different ways 

[00:08:03] Jacqueline Beaumont: to be beautiful. Exactly, yes. Exactly. So there's so Some of it's very ugly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And that's what's so cool about drag is that now, now You're getting all these drag performers who are like, some are clowns, some are gore queens, some are punk queens some are like me, who are just an animal thing.

And so, yeah, there's so many different ways, and I mean, not even to like, Go as far as to say like there, it's not even a feminine essence. Sometimes it's drag Kings. So, and that, that's what I find kind of frustrating about mainstream drag. So that's why I really love this party is just because we try to highlight queer drag and like, more, a more inclusive version of drag.

So, so like my, the performance piece that I did for unicorn most recently was One where I was embodying her, or I call her Gaia. And so, the piece I, I did, it was two songs and a video projection behind me. And so the first portion was Begin Again by Purity Ring. Basically the lyrics, or the chorus go, You be the moon, I'll be the earth, let's begin again.

And sort of It sort of begs from the Earth's perspective for existence to start over again because she can't do it any longer. And so the video projection includes like the migration of manatees or caribou or microscopic and then it moved, and through that performance the beginning of the performance, you see me giving little flower buds to the audience.

And I have, I have a distinct number of ten of them in my hands. And until I had the last one, and it switched over to my Idol. Anoni. If, if you don't know Anoni, I highly recommend you look into her. She herself is a witch. But it's a A N O H N I. She was formerly known as Antonina Johnson's.

Who, like, again, like, definitely look into all of her discography. Cause she's truly fantastic. If I can just say one thing about her. 

[00:10:23] Amy Torok: Yes, please. You said the name and I'm like, I know this name, I know this name. So when the film version of Wigstock came out. Okay. Lee Bowery did a performance where he gave birth to Okay.

He, his assistant. Yeah. 

[00:10:39] Jacqueline Beaumont: Was strapped 

[00:10:41] Amy Torok: to his body and then covered in like a belly sort of costume and then he gave birth to her on the stage. Now. Fantastic. Yeah. And I'm gonna put a clip in the show notes. Y'all have to see Lee Bowery giving birth. It's one of my favorite. But I know this this music because when Lee Bowery originally, I have my eyes closed because I'm trying to conjure the memory.

So, pardon me. He originally performed it to All You Need Is Love by The Beatles. Okay. And of course, there was no way they were getting the rights to put that in the movie. Yeah, no, I'm sure. So, Anoni? Yeah. Re, re, not re recorded, but like recorded this kind of like. Love, love, love, kind of same idea, and as far as I'm concerned, it's better than the Beatles.

And she said, you know, I just recorded it off, it's horrible, and I apologize to the Beatles, and I apologize to Lee Bowery, but for me, I was like, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard, and I'm like, I'll 

[00:11:36] Jacqueline Beaumont: put the clip. Anyway, please keep talking. So, the song from Anoni was called Marrow and Marrow dives into, From the perspective of us as collective humanity taking from the earth and, but, uh, anthropomorphizing her into a feminine essence.

I'm not going to say female but a feminine essence. And it's, it's talking about sort of like, drawing connections between burning, like, mass forest fire burning as burn her hair or acid, like, acid salt flats that are chemically induced by humanity as, like, burn her skin and things like that.

So, then the video transitions over to me the video transitions over to forest fires and oil mines and Like all this destruction on earth and and at that point I only have one flower left and I I get very, very emotional at that point because to me the song is just deeply, deeply emotional.

And when I get into it, I really start to feel like she's with me in that moment. And that's why I really love performance. It's a way for me to connect with her and feel her run through me. Got it. Yeah, exactly. And And, and basically at that point a friend of mine, who in this case is embodied as humanity throws me down into a chair and ties me to the chair and pretends, I'm using air quotations pretends to throw gasoline on me and watches me burn but before I completely Oh, yeah.

Killed off. I managed to free myself and gather my last remaining resource, which is the last flower. Which you've held. Yes. And not given away. Exactly. Which is a great metaphor for self care, which is. Yes. There you go. Keep one little flower bud for yourself always. Exactly. And then this is where it turns really sad.

No matter, no matter how much pain and harm she's endured, She continues to want to give no matter what. And so she basically, the end of the song is the words, We are all Americans now. And I proceed to cry my eyes out and motion to give my last remaining resource. And I have a number of people in the audience with laser pointers, sort of like, Giving the illusion that there's, like, rifles pointed at me.

The red dot. Exactly. And yeah, it's like even as she's trying to give no matter what, and like, no matter how much pain she's in, she consistently wants to give, give, give, and all we are All humanity does is treat her with disrespect and harm. So, and violence. So, yeah, that's, it's pretty heavy handed and not what most people are thinking they're getting themselves into at a drag performance.

But I mean, now I, I've taken it into my performance art has, uh, I've been hugely inspired by Butoh which is, yeah yeah. Okay, for 

[00:14:51] Amy Torok: those of you who don't know I would love to do an entire episode about Butoh one day. It's a Japanese dance form, like, modern ish, you know? I'll let 

[00:14:59] Jacqueline Beaumont: Jackie talk about it.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I, like, I'm totally, like, just a beginner in it, and I've only been practicing it for a few years. Just, there, there are, there are masters that have been doing it their entire lives. So I don't even want to begin to say that I'm an authority on the matter, but just around the philosophy of Butoh and the movement and the, the grotesque amount of beauty in the movement.

It's just, it stirs something in everybody that they. It's inexplainable. It's just crazy. So. One of the 

[00:15:36] Amy Torok: creators of Butoh, I think, described it as like in, in western dance and ballet, it's very much reaching to the 

[00:15:42] Jacqueline Beaumont: sky. Yes. Whereas in Butoh, it's getting very close to the earth and touching the ground.

Even rolling 

[00:15:47] Amy Torok: around on the ground. It's a 

[00:15:49] Jacqueline Beaumont: completely different Exactly. appreciation of nature. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Writhing around and diving into those things about like birth and death. And some of them have, um Um, stated that to, to, to practice butoh is to look at something grotesque and not turn away until eventually you see the beauty in it.

Again, witchcraft. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, I, I definitely see the two as linked. And so now my performance, just because of the difficult situation of being a trans woman that does drag I've kind of. I stopped calling myself a drag queen. I never really was. Just a queen queen? Yeah, I'm just a queen queen.

But now my performance art, I'm just a performance artist. So now my pieces are a lot more about my status as human. And trying to examine the, the The connection that humanity has with the earth, and not just my connection, but as I see humanity's connection to the earth, or therefore the lack of connection with the earth.

So, if anyone's in Montreal, actually I, you can definitely reach out to me and I'm going to be, I have several performances booked over the next little while, so, I'd love to share it with everybody. Huh. Yeah. So, 

[00:17:11] Amy Torok: We'll definitely be all over this. Don't worry listeners, you will hear about 

[00:17:14] Jacqueline Beaumont: it.

Perfect. You'll hear it here in a second. 

[00:17:16] Amy Torok: Perfection. If you follow Jackie on Instagram, you'll hear it there first. Perfect. Yes, exactly. You'll hear it on Missing Witches second. 

[00:17:22] Jacqueline Beaumont: We're big fans. Oh, I'm big fans of you too. Yeah, so, yeah, so basically I'm I'm, Through performance art, I think that's been a big way for me to connect both my, both my artistic practice and my biology practice, but also deeper to my spiritual practice.

I think now somehow with doing ritual since I was in my early teens I've become very accustomed to ritual movement and dance practice. In my spiritual practice. So I think it was only like a matter of time before it manifested itself into a performance based interaction. So, yeah, and I'm just deeply fascinated in terms of like, the The methodology behind ritual, and how, Because 

[00:18:08] Amy Torok: like we talked about in the lab, methodology is ritual.

[00:18:12] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly, yes. But it's just how we Exactly, and it's all in the perception of the context that you're looking at it in. So yeah, yeah, no. 

[00:18:21] Amy Torok: What are your thoughts on, speaking of performance, the Judith Butler, the gender is performative. Yeah. 

[00:18:27] Jacqueline Beaumont: What are your thoughts on that? Judith interesting. Judith is a great gal.

She's got lots of really hot topics that are absolutely incredible. I think one of the, one of the biggest things around gender, which I'm assuming we want to talk to you a lot about today. Judith, Judith said at one point, I forget exactly what article. So don't directly quote me here, but 

[00:18:50] Amy Torok: yeah, missing, which is a gmail.

com. Leave Jackie alone.

[00:18:56] Jacqueline Beaumont: And and basically Judith had stated that we're. Every gender is all encompassingly a performance because at the end of the day when you get home you take off your clothes and you lay at home naked and in that moment you are without a gender. A gender is completely performative. And I, and I think, I, I, I think a big thing that we should clarify just really loosely on because I don't want to dive into the I don't want to go into the dynamics of this too deeply, but huge thing, like sexuality and gender are two very, very different things.

Okay, listeners, we started out assuming that you know this, and maybe you don't, and you know what, that is okay. Yeah. 

[00:19:41] Amy Torok: We're here to learn, so why don't you 

[00:19:43] Jacqueline Beaumont: explain to our listeners who may not know. Definitely, definitely. So, sexuality is is Who you are attracted to and it is a more biological thing, but even then Ah.

Ah! Ah! 

[00:20:00] Amy Torok: We deal with these complicated and nuanced and very singular experiences of like It is. We can't say this is how it is for Black people. We don't want to sit here and say, this is how it is for trans people. Exactly. 

[00:20:10] Jacqueline Beaumont: This is only how it is for Black people. This is only for my experience. So, and what's interesting, I mean, perfect example like, I grew up as a non binary person who more so erred on the side of homosexuality and then I began my transition and and I started to fully realize who I was and now it's like wait I'm I'm not homosexual which is it's so crazy that breakthrough moment in the clouds where you're like Wait a minute, this whole time, I've been saying, and like, Like, strengthening myself with like, yes, you're strong, and you're gay, and it's okay.

Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're like, I'm a strong, independent trans woman who's just doing her thing. And I'm not gay. Like, 

[00:21:13] Amy Torok: yeah, I'm just like, 

[00:21:15] Jacqueline Beaumont: I'm like, yeah, exactly. And I'm just like, wait, am I, am I, am I straight? That's crazy. My whole life. I kept telling myself I'm not straight. I'm not straight. I kept telling people I'm not straight.

And now I'm just like, you know what? It, sexuality completely. because sexuality is just the label that you put on it. And, and I mean, for me, I would more so categorize myself as like a bisexual, pansexual, I guess. I'm not even sure. Things surprise me every day. 

[00:21:47] Amy Torok: Our listeners who maybe never heard the word pansexual, it basically just means like.

Anybody. Anybody that's rad, I don't care if you're trans, what kind of genitals you have, if you have breasts or not, doesn't matter. You know what, I'm attracted to like humanity. 

[00:22:01] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly, it's just in the essence. So that's what asexual means if you're, if you didn't know. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so I think sexuality and gender are two completely opposing things.

They they're, it's weird to say that they're correlated, because they technically are in a. definition sense. Mm-Hmm. . And definitely in a conventional sense. In a conventional sense, they're, they're correlated, but they're not sated. Mm-Hmm. . And so it's yeah, it's, it's a very deeply Okay. So very personal.

It's very personal to you. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah. 

[00:22:38] Amy Torok: How did you know that you were trans woman and not like femme, gay. How do you personally, like, do you 

[00:22:44] Jacqueline Beaumont: have, did you have a moment? I mean, I've, I've always felt more on the non binary side. I think once I started I think once I started to really start noticing the effects of this beautiful thing called aging.

Aging, ooh, that's another follow up. Yeah, it definitely is. I started to realize things that I didn't, um, identify with anymore. Puberty. Puberty. Yes. And as I, as I grew, I started to notice things about my body. I started to notice just a feeling inside me that, um, it's really hard to explain.

But it's just, it's just, I didn't feel. Like, I was completely, 100 percent in the right body. So, yeah, it, it was just, it wasn't really a huge epiphany. It's just the turning point where I was like, Okay, now's your time to shine. Now's your time to get on with it. I was, I was in an extremely abusive relationship.

And coming out of that, I, I mean A romantic relationship? A romantic one. Yeah, my, my, my boyfriend at the time Yeah, anyway don't want to give him too much air. No, but 

[00:24:00] Amy Torok: being in abusive relationships affects us. Oh yes. It affects us more than 

[00:24:06] Jacqueline Beaumont: you probably even know. Oh yeah, no definitely. So we don't concentrate on our 

[00:24:11] Amy Torok: abusers, but we also don't pretend that they didn't affect us, right?

[00:24:14] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. That is 100 percent correct. So, yeah, I I kind of just had a moment. Gathered up all the strength that I had left My friends and family were there and supporting me through it all and they were just like you got to get rid of this guy Yeah, I'm hugely privileged with that and So basically I kicked him out and I started Started to unravel my trauma and deal with some stuff, some unaddressed issues in my life.

And I was like, you know what? There is something that has been eating me away for years and years and years. And maybe now is the point at where I finally start to try to address this thing in my life. And so that's kind of where my transition started. Was after that I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna try and do anything else except me so I've only listened to myself about it all I just yeah I think that was like the huge epiphany moment where I was like okay now's the time to do it and 

[00:25:18] Amy Torok: again I think being a witch means that like it's all It's all and so we talk about listening to other people and engaging and connecting, but we also talk about listening to only yourself Mm hmm But we as witches somehow we make room for both of these things and listen only to ourselves But also to everything always all the time.

[00:25:36] Jacqueline Beaumont: Definitely. Yeah, 

[00:25:38] Amy Torok: so you took a moment Coming out of abuse and again, we see this a lot especially with witches. I was just talking to Marigold about Medusa You know, Medusa was a rape victim, and that's how she became a quote unquote monster. You know, but you can see the snakes as power. Anger. Righteous anger.

[00:25:56] Jacqueline Beaumont: Yeah, exactly. And I think another aspect of femininity that most people don't realize is Yeah, sure, Earth is giving, and she's beautiful, and she is loving and caring but also at the same time It's, it, it's just as much a part of her feminine essence to be destructive and to have those moments of just volatile vulnerability and like just let it go and be angry and yeah.

It, that, that is just as much a part of femininity. It's like femininity. We are 

[00:26:33] Amy Torok: volcanoes as much as we are. Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:26:38] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Yes. Perfect. Yes. Good. So, so, and I think that's, that's something that a lot of people don't realize is that there, there is that duality with femininity. Femininity isn't just about keeping the soft, warm, nurturing nature to ourselves.

It's like, it's okay to be like a thunderstorm. It's okay to feel those moments. So yeah, I, I, I really, I lost my thread. 

[00:27:05] Amy Torok: A lot of, a lot of that is like, when we embrace the term witch, we're embracing 

[00:27:11] Jacqueline Beaumont: the volcano. Yes, 

[00:27:11] Amy Torok: exactly. Definitely. And allowing ourselves to take up space, physically, with our voices, making sounds, you know, performing.

Yeah, exactly. Being on stage, all of those things, that we're walking down the street in 

[00:27:23] Jacqueline Beaumont: our own self confidence. Yeah. I mean, to just be like visibly femme is an act of rebellion. Mm hmm. A political act. Yeah, political act, definitely. So, there's so And it's certainly, sorry to interrupt you, but it's certainly like the way 

[00:27:36] Amy Torok: that our society has gone.

I mean, people don't look twice at a woman wearing pants. Yeah, exactly. But if you want to be edgy as a man, all you have to do is like And you're the edgiest. Oh, yeah. It's very strange. Yeah. How we, I don't 

[00:27:53] Jacqueline Beaumont: know. No, no, no, no. Exactly. It's. And I mean, like, even, even if I think about, like, my experience as a non binary person before I started my transition versus after, like, I, I would, before I would have a large variety of suitors and now that I.

I had like, grown breast tissue, and started like, You're on hormone? Yeah, exactly, yeah. And like, all of a sudden, all of them are gone. I'm like, what was the, I don't dress any differently. I don't dress, I don't dress any differently. It's just now that I identify as one thing. That is on the more feminine side of things.

I'm like completely off limits. It's so funny. How much 

[00:28:41] Amy Torok: do we lose when we succumb to essentialism? Yes. I am this and therefore I won't do that. Yeah. These people who are hating you are really losing out. Thank you. But I assume it's because they're like, I'm a gay man. Exactly. And you're a 

[00:28:55] Jacqueline Beaumont: woman now. And it took me a while to I'm not that ball of maite in my head.

I was like, why? Like, we were talking for months and now No what? Mm-Hmm. . Like, why won't you have coffee with me? . bUt like, it, it, it just I, it, it was a huge moment where I was just like, I, I was almost like. Misgendering myself in my own head for a few moments. I was like, why don't why aren't you interested in me anymore?

Why didn't and then I was like, oh wait. Yeah, I have tits now And like I am a woman now So it's like there's both a bodily change in my own body and another clarification for some people who don't know Not all trans women take hormones. So And not all trans women are

How do I say this? Visually present themselves as feminine. Like for, for myself, I don't really take too much care in trying to like wear low cut tops and high heels. Exactly. Yeah. Again, that's never been me. It never will be me. Yeah. So, yeah. And so I think. And that's perfectly fine. I'm just as much a very strong trans woman if I don't want to shave my legs.

And I don't want to wear a low cut top. I just want to wear my, like, scuba shirt. Which is confusing 

[00:30:29] Amy Torok: for people because they have this very binary Yeah. And if you want to be a woman, quote, quote, you want to be a woman, that means you must want flower crowns. Yeah. I mean, I love a flower crown. I love a flower crown.

Yeah. High heeled shoes and long nails. Yeah. So you can play your 

[00:30:47] Jacqueline Beaumont: guitar. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:49] Amy Torok: Definitely. I never got, I mean. I love all of y'all's manicures, but like, how do you live? Like, please email me and tell me how you go about your life with these things I can't. And I've been walking in heels, and again, like, I'm a cisgender, six foot tall.

You know, you and I 

[00:31:07] Jacqueline Beaumont: don't walk tall in terms of our physicality, really. Yeah, definitely, yeah. So, yeah, in heels, I've just, over the past few months, I've just realized, you know what, I, people already are like, oh, wow, you're so tall. I'm like, Really? I'm only 5'3 Completely lying to their face. And they're like, what?

That's wrong. Because I'm 6'2 If anyone else who hasn't met me doesn't know. So like, when I wear a pair of heels, I feel like I'm really trying to some act of hyper femininity. And I think that's perfectly fine. I love my heels, but at the same time, I would much rather walk around in my toe shoes, um, and be very comfortable.

So, and, and I think that, I think that that's a very. important part to touch on with transness is that not all transness looks the same. Not even close. Not even close at all. 

[00:32:03] Amy Torok: Listen to part two of my conversation with Jackie Beaumont now.

Jacqui Beaumont Part 2

[00:00:00] Amy Torok: Here's part two of my conversation with Jackie Beaumont on Missing Witches, Witches Found. I, 

[00:00:07] Jacqueline Beaumont: I read a trans woman talking about her female penis. Yeah, exactly. And this is 

[00:00:12] Amy Torok: something that a lot of our listeners, because my mind was like, right? But of course I'd never thought about a female penis because, you know, but like, why not?

Why not? Exactly. Again, you're the scientist here, but as far as I know. And we talk about sexuality being a spectrum, but like biological sex is also a spectrum. Again, listeners it's easy and lazy to put people into one of two categories because then you only have two categories you need to square people into.

But it's not just about, do you have a penis or a vagina? We are chemical soups, 

[00:00:49] Jacqueline Beaumont: all of us. 

[00:00:50] Amy Torok: And I'm looking at my own reflection in the mirror and I probably have a little more testosterone maybe again. We are all chemical soups, it's not just a question of you are this and you are that, we are literally all just like a mix.

And this binaric opposition of male and female also completely discounts intersex people. Exactly, yes. And so they're being chopped up as babies because they're born. Exactly. And then whoever, the doctor, the parents are like, well You don't fit into one of these two categories, so we're going to cut you up.

And now the laws are changing 

[00:01:21] Jacqueline Beaumont: about this. Yes, thank 

[00:01:22] Amy Torok: gosh. And again, like, now we're having conversations about female penises. Like, the world is changing 

[00:01:28] Jacqueline Beaumont: for the better. Definitely. So 

[00:01:29] Amy Torok: how do you, as a witch, um, Take up your female space without that sort of, like, conventional femininity. How does your femininity manifest?

[00:01:41] Jacqueline Beaumont: That's my question. Yeah, I, I think my, I, I try to make sure that in my own head When I, when I look in the mirror and I'm, like, just riddled with dysphoria, I try to remind myself that my, my femininity and my transness isn't dependent on what I look like. And I would much rather focus my attention on what I can provide for the world from my brain, rather than my beauty.

And I think that my femininity manifests itself in a more, academic way, I guess? That's a terrible way to put it, but like, I, I, I, I, I As 

[00:02:22] Amy Torok: a woman of the academy myself, we love anything that's like, yeah, yeah, fancy book, fancy book gender. 

[00:02:29] Jacqueline Beaumont: Definitely, definitely, yeah. So, yeah, I think that, I think that's more so where I would, uh, categorize the manifestation of my femininity is that I, I try to, I don't know, I try to step back from those normalist notions of it, and I, I actually get some flack from trans women actually, I've been, I've been told off on many occasions online that I'm, I'm not a transgender woman, I'm just a transsexual woman who is a crossdresser, and I'm like, sorry, what?

And they're like, oh well, in order to be a trans woman you need to shave all of your hair. 

[00:03:11] Amy Torok: So in order for me to be a cis woman, I also have to do that? Because I fucked that 

[00:03:14] Jacqueline Beaumont: up. Apparently, yeah. I'm super arial! Exactly. So that doesn't seem fair. Exactly, yeah, and I was just like, I'm really sorry, I must have not, I must have dropped the handbook that you got when you became transgender.

I lost mine, and I'm so sorry, I guess I missed that. Can you lend me your copy? Yeah, exactly. Can I get your copy of the Transgender Manual? of how to go about grooming myself and it's like to have that, I mean, of course there's, there's a generational gap within a lot of those women that were trying to tell me to conform to this for a lot of trans women.

And for a lot of trans men as well, and non binary people, they do have to conform for their safety. Exactly. Because they need to go unnoticed. Passing 

[00:04:01] Amy Torok: means not attracting attention to yourself and not incurring 

[00:04:05] Jacqueline Beaumont: the violence of Exactly, yeah. And and I think, and I think another thing within that is passing privilege which for anyone who doesn't really know, it's like, passing privilege is a trans person who pass as perfectly as their gender, and so in, in that, like, I've, I've heard stories of trans women who have been on the metro and, and a man will see a transgender woman who doesn't, who, who hasn't, um, manifested herself physically as well, as long as another trans woman would and therefore is a little bit more, And I'm using air quotations, and clockable.

Clockable. And, and I, I, I remember hearing the story about the gentleman turning to the passable trans woman and saying, Ooh, geez, look at that tranny. Mm hmm. And her just kind of stepping back and being like, You didn't know it? Oh. Like, and in that moment you have the power to be able to be like, Well actually, you can either say, Well actually, in case you didn't know, I'm also trans.

And, that's so not cool. Yeah. Or, you can say, . Yeah, I know, right? Mm-Hmm. and, and cover it up and I mean, and be like giddy that Exactly. 

[00:05:30] Amy Torok: Yeah. You know, someone who's, you are so passable that someone could be bigoted. Exactly. . Oh yeah. You and Naugh 

[00:05:36] Jacqueline Beaumont: even. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, and like I've. I, I've, I've seen that in terms of like, like trans pop stars nowadays, there's, there's even, there are some that don't talk about transness because they know that it'll impact their career path and I, I hope that in that instance, like, I mean, really weird example but Kim Petras, Kim Petras was the youngest trans woman to ever transition and Then years went by, her name bubbled down a little bit and she rose up as a pop star.

And now she's She's selling out stadiums now and a lot of people don't even know she's trans. And it's, it's like when they realize that she's trans, they're like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that. She just looks like every other girl. And exactly. And again, that's so much power that she has. But I think if, if they, if they have the privilege of not being in an, in, in a.

Where they're not unsafe. I think it, it's, it's, it's not their duty to say, to speak up on behalf of us, because I know how hard it can be, but I think passing privilege, um, That you do, you do have that power and I think that's a really incredible thing to be able to use. And there's an economic privilege that plays heavily into this as well.

Definitely. 

[00:07:07] Amy Torok: Definitely. I mean, if you have that inside feeling but you don't have the coins to manifest your transition. Yeah. If you can't pay for your hormones. Yeah. I mean. 

[00:07:16] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Capitalism! Ugh. Yeah, no. I mean, in my case, I'm incredibly privileged. I, I'm very young. I'm very well educated. But unfortunately, because of my visual identity, it's very incredibly hard for me to get a job.

But I know academically, of course I can get a job. Thanks to my wonderful parents. No letters after your name. Exactly, yes. And also, I mean, my white skin, that definitely gives me An endless amount of privilege in this world, so, I do have an im I have an immense amount of power and also, no matter what, I have a safety net where my parents, no matter what happens in my life, if I fall financially, I have the support of them.

I have the support of my friends. I have the support of my community. So I am privileged enough that I can take all the hormones that I need. Which for me, with my 6'2 body, is a lot of hormones. Right, and I never even thought about it. Yeah, yeah. The dosage. Right. Yeah, it's an insane amount of money that goes in every month to it.

And it's, for me, it's out of pocket. So, But fortunately enough, I'm in a state of privilege to be able to afford all of that. I'm able to afford these things. Maybe 

[00:08:34] Amy Torok: this is too personal, but how did you 

[00:08:35] Jacqueline Beaumont: explain this to your parents? Yeah. So, I mean, they've always known that I was non binary. I mean, I, I, I, yeah.

But, I mean, I don't know 

[00:08:44] Amy Torok: how old you are, but I'm going to assume your parents are, you know, older than me. 

[00:08:48] Jacqueline Beaumont: Yeah, they are older than you. You were born in 

[00:08:50] Amy Torok: the 80s, 90s? No. 

[00:08:54] Jacqueline Beaumont: No. No. No. I am twenty. I'm twenty. I'm twenty years old. I'm a baby! Yes! Okay, 

[00:09:04] Amy Torok: so your parents might be my age. Literally. They're forty 

[00:09:07] Jacqueline Beaumont: one.

Okay, they're in their fifties though. Oh, okay. So 

[00:09:10] Amy Torok: they might not necessarily 

[00:09:11] Jacqueline Beaumont: know. No. I mean, yeah, definitely. It's been a huge learning game for them. Well, I could be your mother. 

[00:09:18] Amy Torok: Sorry, she's hitting me now. I'm not a baby. Okay, go ahead, go ahead. 

[00:09:23] Jacqueline Beaumont: So, I mean, like, my, my gender identity has always been very skewed.

My sexuality was never at all, it was always like, so they're not straight. And your parents were progressive. Yeah, they were very progressive. I knew that no matter what situation, I would never get myself into trouble with them. They would always have my back, which, again, is like a huge privilege.

So, it's growing up with them, I I mean, I barely even came out to them as gay. My dad actually told me, he was like do you mind like coming out to your mother before you leave for university? I'm like, okay. Yeah, sure. Mm-Hmm. . Like, I never told him. It was just like a thing that was unsaid. Mm-Hmm.

So that, I mean, we certainly don't come out as like straight. There's no like 

[00:10:16] Amy Torok: moment where it's like a bar mitzvah. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Which would be great, I mean, 

[00:10:21] Jacqueline Beaumont: I kind of wish we all did. Right, yeah, exactly. But also at the same time, it's like, I never really saw the point in it because I mean, I don't really want to discuss my sexual intercourse with my parents.

Oh, everyone wants to talk 

[00:10:34] Amy Torok: about fucking with their parents. Are you crazy? 

[00:10:38] Jacqueline Beaumont: So, I mean, I never, I was like, well, all of my girlfriends don't have to talk about it with their parents, so why should I have to? So, I just never really talked about it. I just went about my life, and they were like, Um, and then I, I mean, I was always gender bending air quotations gender bending all the way through high school.

And then basically when I, I, I told them after I kicked my ex out I told them that I wanted to go and start seeing a doctor. About getting some stuff worked on and looked at and what the possibilities for me are. And they were completely supportive of me all the way through. Pronouns are still difficult.

 And I, I think, I think that for a lot of I think that for a lot of parents that are extremely supportive and loving of their child, they it's sometimes difficult to make the, the transition for pronouns for them because it, yeah, exactly. And, and that it is, they need to grieve the death of their child in order to be able to.

embrace their daughter or their son or whoever their child is. So, and, and I think that that is a huge turning point for parents where they're like, oh wow, like. They need to, they need to go through the process of saying goodbye so that they can say hello. 

[00:12:08] Amy Torok: I think the most supportive people, like, we're not androids.

No, no, no. We're like, okay, compute, you are this now and I'm that now. I'm just going to type it into my brain and not 

[00:12:17] Jacqueline Beaumont: replace the file. Yeah, 

[00:12:18] Amy Torok: exactly. I know you're working toward, like, being a cyber being, but we're not there yet. Not quite there yet. 

[00:12:26] Jacqueline Beaumont: And I mean like, like for me it's, it's, I mean when I'm out in public it's, it's still even difficult because I'm like, in my head I'm so feminine presenting and I'm such a strong woman in my head that when I get misgendered in public I'm like, like, what?

Okay, I 

[00:12:42] Amy Torok: just want to say that I'm a triple D and I get misgendered in public, so don't you worry about that. Yeah, exactly. I'm just like. Especially in the winter, like, sir. Yeah. I'm like. 

[00:12:52] Jacqueline Beaumont: Yeah, 

[00:12:53] Amy Torok: yeah, 

[00:12:55] Jacqueline Beaumont: so it's like I'm constantly like how, what? It doesn't, it doesn't compute with me but I mean I guess, I guess people just in their head they see certain things like my height and my shoulder width and they're like well that's a man.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, so, and it, it's, they, they have to compute them into either man or woman, they don't have anywhere in between. Which doesn't serve us as humans. Exactly, exactly, and and yeah, and I mean just, I mean, even pronoun politics is, it's a huge thing because it's like, even to just go around and say they to everyone.

You're misgendering people as well because, like, for some of my trans women friends of mine that are like, they go by she, and they do not go by the bae. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, like, they They don't want to be, sorry, she, I should use singular, I should use singular here. She doesn't want to be called they because that means that they err in an area of the non binary and for her, she is she.

She's not they. And I 

[00:14:14] Amy Torok: mean, maybe this is controversial, you tell me if it's controversial being trans. In a way. supports the binaric opposition of male and female? Yeah. My voice is going up as a form of a question! 

[00:14:34] Jacqueline Beaumont: I think, I think in a lot of ways yes, and also some no. Yeah, yes and no. That's the answer to everything.

Yeah, yes, yes and no. Depends. Yeah it can, it's completely subjective on the context, so I mean Like you were talking about people who say you have 

[00:14:45] Amy Torok: to shave your legs. Yeah. In order to be a proper 

[00:14:48] Jacqueline Beaumont: trans woman. Exactly, yeah. And again, air quotes, air quotes, air quotes. They're everywhere today. Crawfer.

Yeah. So, yeah, there's, there's so many little ambiguous areas where I think, I think in all honesty, people just need to get used to the, the notion of asking someone what their pronouns are. Like, When I'm, it's, it still like catches me off guard when I'm in a meeting with a large group of people and we go, like, the moderator of the research circle will be like, okay, so everyone go around, say their name, their favorite food, their pronoun, and where they're from.

Just like a normal icebreaker. Exactly. It's, yeah, and to just normalize it in a way where it's, it's not like, oh. But I could see I could see in 98 percent of all these people there. They were just like Like, I'd say 60 percent of them forgot about the pronoun aspect of the questionnaire. Because it wasn't so important to them.

Exactly. And for a lot of people, they don't even, they've never even been given the opportunity to question it. So why would they think about it? So I think if, if it's, if it's more normalized, then we're able to start to get it into people's heads. That it is, it's perfectly rational to think about this.

So. I'm 

[00:16:09] Amy Torok: not going to use any of the names that are out there. People who are against. pronoun choice, because their names are spoken enough, but to me it's like, someone tells you their pronoun, that's them saying, here's how not to hurt me. And if you're like, well, screw that, then you're saying, I want to hurt you or I don't care about hurting you.

Exactly. If you're confused about pronouns, just stick to the person's name, y'all. Yeah. Like you can say, I went to Jackie's house and Jackie and I went to the store and then Jackie and I did this and Jackie and I did that and Jackie and I, we, if we, and I almost think that if we did do that, if we got rid of.

Pronouns entirely then we're connecting with people on their humanity. Exactly. This person is Jackie This isn't a he or a she or an it or a they or whatever horribleness you all want to come up with for your own selves Yeah this is Jackie. 

[00:16:58] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Beaumont. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So instead 

[00:17:01] Amy Torok: of going he, she, they it's Jackie 

[00:17:02] Jacqueline Beaumont: fucking Beaumont.

Exactly. So if you're confused, use the 

[00:17:05] Amy Torok: person's first name. Exactly. If you're confused and you're looking at somebody and Just don't fucking worry about it. Their genitals are none of your business anyway. There's no other situation in the world where somebody's genitals are going to inform your conversation with them.

I'm sorry. Just use their fucking name if you're 

[00:17:24] Jacqueline Beaumont: confused. Precisely. This is me throwing my hands up in the air. Couldn't agree more. That's a mic drop. 

[00:17:31] Amy Torok: Perfect. Okay. So, we are here in part because I have a problem. Alrighty. And you know this problem, I'm not springing anything on Jackie, you listeners who think that I'm springing this.

I'm not. We've talked about it. We're juxtaposing this episode against, with, not in a debate sense because we're not fighting, we're learning with the Zsuzsanna Budapest episode who, her version of Dianic Wicca only includes The womb. Yeah. And it's very womb centric. So I wanted Jackie to talk about TERFdom.

For those of you who didn't listen to the episode or don't know what a TERF is, it's an acronym that stands for Trans Excluding or Exclusive Radical Feminist. Part of me. I don't get it because exclusivity is not my tea at all. Like it's not what I'm like, inclusivity, intersectionality. This is how we're, we make good humanities.

But because of patriarchy and because the woman was smashed and smashed and smashed, like that's sort of where Dujana was coming from, where she wanted to create a safe space for women, but then she became the powerful one. And excluded, I don't even know what to make of it because I understand the need for safe spaces.

I, and I said this exactly in the episode, so I'm going to have Jackie respond exactly to what I said in the episode, which was this. I get why Shoshana felt that she needed to create safe space for women. I do not get why she thinks she gets to decide what a woman is. So, can we talk about that from like a pagan 

[00:19:16] Jacqueline Beaumont: perspective?

Yes. Please. Yeah, I would love to. Thank you. I think if you go back historically, the notion of the, the mother and the father are so deeply ingrained into, So, the practice that it's, to a lot of people, it's like, well, if we're following it by the book, technically, it says there's a mother and a father, and the mother is a female, and has a vagina that gives birth and My 

[00:19:47] Amy Torok: vagina isn't capable of giving birth, by 

[00:19:49] Jacqueline Beaumont: the way.

Many, many of them I don't even know if she 

[00:19:52] Amy Torok: would let me into her little coven. 

[00:19:54] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly, yeah, yeah, it's, there's, there's some, and that's, uh, It's like, there's so many different ways to, again, what we were talking about in the first episode I was on, like, the, the idea of to be a woman is to have a womb, or to be a woman is to bleed, cuts not just, it doesn't just cut out Many trans women, because there are lots of trans women with perfectly functioning vaginas.

And there are also 

[00:20:24] Amy Torok: lots of trans men with perfectly functioning vaginas. 

[00:20:28] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. And, but it also cuts out all these women that are, were, again lots of air quotations, born a woman. And just have. Infertility discriminate, uh, discriminate yeah, let's go with discrimination. Like, it's, 

[00:20:48] Amy Torok: It's definitely, I mean, I won't get too much into my personal business, but I've told people, like, I can't have children.

And then the next time I see them, they're like, When are you gonna have kids? And I'm like, My body isn't going to do that. You know? It's 

[00:21:05] Jacqueline Beaumont: not gonna 

[00:21:06] Amy Torok: happen. I'm in a wheelchair, and you're like, why don't you just go for a run? When are you gonna start running? And I'm like, because I fucking can't like, but because I'm a married heterosexual woman, this is the next step.

[00:21:20] Jacqueline Beaumont: Anyway, sorry. Yeah, so It's okay. It's okay. No, I love to hear it. So I think If you go all the way back, yes, there is that notion of it, but also at the same time, there's so many things that need to be updated nowadays. There's so many archaic ideas that, yeah, sure, they were based in a very good place, but now they need to adapt to a new era.

We're in a completely different epoch. I mean, if we go way, way, way, way, way, way, way back I mean, if many people don't know, the world used to run on a matrilineal cycle with matrilineal governance. And that's where the divine feminine idea was really born, really. So, in those societies, femininity was cherished and held to the highest prowess, and nowadays it's just kicked and smashed down underneath patriarchy.

So But, I mean, deeper within Dianic or TERFdom they're, uh, sorry, we're just gonna have to like cut here, I need to formulate myself because it's hard, it's, it's a very difficult, like 

[00:22:37] Amy Torok: the struggle that biological, biological women have had to get their health concerns You know, it's like second only to trans people trying to get their health care, so, you know, when, when a woman like Zsuzsanna wants to talk about her bleeding without some dude.

Yeah, again, I get that and I get her anger, but I don't get excluding people from, okay. We're paused anyway, because here's my hang up and my hang up should not create legislation. So all y'all out there who think that your hang ups should create legislation like they shouldn't, but my hang up is in competition and 

[00:23:22] Jacqueline Beaumont: specifically sports.

Yes. Okay. But, 

[00:23:25] Amy Torok: I mean, and you can understand where I think that it's a little unfair to, you know, have, have these physical bodies competing against each other in only this physical realm. Mm hmm. Feels a little 

[00:23:36] Jacqueline Beaumont: bit unfair. Completely, yeah. 

[00:23:38] Amy Torok: However, spirituality is not a physical competition. Exactly, 

[00:23:43] Jacqueline Beaumont: yeah.

Yeah, no, completely. 

[00:23:45] Amy Torok: Like, and again, like, there's no winner or loser. Again, if it's a running race. Maybe a trans woman has a biological advantage because of her skeletal structure or her muscular structure or whatever. But again, in a, in a coven? Like where's, there should be no competition. Exactly.

If, 

[00:24:08] Jacqueline Beaumont: and, and I think, I think what's really, really interesting about excluding a trans woman from a dianetic coven or any coven for that matter is, , the, the, the point at where someone realizes their transgender ness, specifically a trans woman in this instance, they are recognizing and truly embodying what the feminine spirit is like.

That is like the rawest feeling of being in touch with femininity you can possibly have is the moment of like, holy fuck, I'm in the wrong body. Mm-Hmm. because. I'm, I can feel this within me so deeply and so strongly that I need to change my body and adapt my body so that this energy within me can manifest itself properly.

And I mean, to me, to me, it's just like, I think that getting in touch with that, I, I, I, I don't really know how anyone can get in touch with that spirit and that feeling. And. Be so sure of these feelings of like, well, this is what a woman is, this is what a woman is not. It's like to the, the whole idea of like femininity is so ambiguous and to every woman is completely different, and every definition of femininity is different.

Certainly there's no 

[00:25:36] Amy Torok: singular female experience. 

[00:25:38] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. It, there's, there's. Billions of these feminine experiences. Four and a half or so. Exactly, yeah. Something like that, roughly. And just living right now, that's not even going to go all of the billions that it does. Oh my gosh, yeah. So, and it's just like, we, we need to, we need to sort of dismantle this idea that we are, Bound by what body we are born into because that really has like, I mean take it from me, that has next to nothing to do with pretty much anything.

It, it can all change so incredibly quickly just by a chemical in your body. But, I mean, if, if you, if you, if you're denying someone who is that in tune with a feminine spirit, to have the opportunity to share that love and to share that power with people, then what, you're not trying to share or embrace that love at all.

You're trying to get rid of it and tame it down and keep it Well, keep it under a rock, essentially. And essentially is the word that is essentialism, which is, I think, the enemy of the craft. Exactly, yeah. 

[00:26:55] Amy Torok: And trans people are the enemy of essentialism, so trans people are magical beings. 

[00:26:59] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Exactly.

And I mean, like, again, like, if you go into, like, pretty much, almost, almost The majority of religious beliefs throughout the world or spiritual practices throughout the world. There are these transgender or genderless or non binary figures that ring all the way through history. In all cultures.

In all cultures, yes. The idea of a non binary or a, or a I mean, like, if, if we're thinking about, like, the indigenous people in North America, you look at, like, two spirit people they're, they're held to, like, an extremely wise position within their clans. because of the amount of knowledge that they possess in terms of being able to, for some, they see from both perspectives.

They've seen what it is to have the masculine spirit and now they see from a feminine spirit. Some people can see both at once. It's like, we are cap As trans or non binary people, we see the in between. We see where a point of view fails. Or a point of view is not entirely crystal clear. Because they're, they're looking from one point of view.

And if you're gonna just stick in one point of view, then you need to realize that there's stuff that you're missing. And, yeah, if you're only looking forward, then you're not seeing what's behind you. And you're not seeing what's on either side of you. So, being non binary, you get to see and I think that that's so important to realize because in, in our current like political climate, it's like you need to listen to the voices of people who are marginalized because they have seen, they've seen, They've, they've seen where the system has failed them and in order to improve that system and to see where the system is failing You wouldn't know that the system is failing unless you have seen it from that perspective Right, if you're living in 

[00:29:05] Amy Torok: your little jolly picket fence echo chamber, you're like, the world is great, 

[00:29:09] Jacqueline Beaumont: capitalism works Yeah, exactly, exactly Exactly because you haven't seen where capitalism fails.

So to, to, to be to be non binary and to be transgender you You see from both perspectives, and I think that, I mean, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to have someone like that who sees what you don't see. It's like From a 

[00:29:34] Amy Torok: very practical perspective, I read an essay by a trans man. Yeah, he transitioned from female to male.

I'm just trying to remember the article and I'll put it in the show notes. I will find it for you guys because y'all need to read it. Who was a business person and experienced the world of business through the eyes of a woman. And then. through the eyes of a man and have a lot to say. Oh yes, I'm sure.

A lot to say about the difference in treatment, in values, in everything. So this is a person who is like uniquely capable of assessing what's right and what's wrong. Exactly. In any given environment. Yeah. 

[00:30:13] Jacqueline Beaumont: No, exactly. They yeah, we're capable of seeing what, where the fail is and, and, And I think in this case it, it only took a.

few trans people to be like by the way, like I'm a woman and I should be allowed in this coven because I am a woman and this is an all women's coven, correct? 

[00:30:32] Amy Torok: And this was a public event too. I mean, this was not like come to Jujana's 

[00:30:36] Jacqueline Beaumont: home 

[00:30:37] Amy Torok: and like, you know, make your own rules in your heads, but don't try to take them into society.

This was like a like a, basically like a pagan. What do we call it? Con? Convention. Okay. And I'm like, what's con short for conference? No. Convention. And this ritual was for cis women only. Xojana was very And now she's boycotting the conference. Mmm. So I don't know what the lesson is. The lesson is like, shut out everyone until you're alone.

I mean, those of you who listened to the Xojana episode which just preceded this episode, know that I'm just confused. 

[00:31:16] Jacqueline Beaumont: It's very confusing. Like, 

[00:31:17] Amy Torok: patriarchy divides, witchcraft unites. Yes. That's what I thought. Yeah. So it seems to me that Giugiorno is like acting out the patriarchy more than she's trying to smash it.

Which is like a feminist, again, 

[00:31:30] Jacqueline Beaumont: baffling. I'm back. Exactly. Yeah. No, and, and, and I mean like, if, if you look at like, just like stepping outside of, stepping outside of witchcraft, you get TERFs. And like. Like, to, to, to bind somebody by what you've been bound by your entire life is like, well what's the point in that?

If you've been dealing with this your whole life, then what's the point in binding someone else by it? Exactly! 

[00:31:56] Amy Torok: Like, if we find this place where like, well, I have no power, but now I'm going to get power, and then I'm going to use it to smash the other, like. What's 

[00:32:04] Jacqueline Beaumont: the point in that? Yeah, like 

[00:32:06] Amy Torok: what the?

Wait, what? Like you did this to me and it was horrible so I'm just waiting until I can be in that position to do it to somebody else. There's this old saying that's like when people are hurt they go one of two ways they either think, I don't want this to ever happen to anyone again or they think well it happened to me so I may as well make it happen 

[00:32:25] Jacqueline Beaumont: to you.

Yeah, 

[00:32:29] Amy Torok: exactly. And I don't get how a witch would choose 

[00:32:31] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I, I, I mean, the, I, right? 

[00:32:40] Amy Torok: Yeah. This is where we always come to is like, this just baffled. Like, I'm baffled. I can't figure out, Juju, like, what are you doing? I'm worried for, I hope you're listening to this, Juju, because I am worried for your legacy.

Your legacy is going to be a hating, like a hate filled Which is baloney because you did some amazing stuff leading up to this point. So what do we do with that? 

[00:33:06] Jacqueline Beaumont: What do we do with that? Exactly. I mean, yeah, I mean, if, if we, I mean, I'm going to step into transhumanism for a second. And like look at biohacking.

I mean, We have, if you look at transhumanist philosophy, we have reached our maximum evolutionary potential as humans. And in order to, to survive in our upcoming changing environment, which I'm I'm hoping most people know about. You mean like climate change? Oh yeah, that little, little tidbit. Yeah, I don't think it exists.

We'll stop and check this out. So, in order to adapt to a changing environment, we need to make efforts to change ourselves in order to adapt to that changing world. And, I think that this philosophy can not only be put on an evolutionary scale with biohacking It can also be just, like, taken into account for gender politics.

If we don't adapt and change ourselves for the better in order to adapt to our changing environment, then we're just, well, fucked. You're just fucked! So, I, I mean, I urge anyone who has strong beliefs against trans people being included into a cisgendered woman based I think that in order to be able to truly make an impact and grow and nurture that love and care within your coven and within the world and manifest that outside of yourselves, I think you, you have to adapt to these changing conditions.

Dianic witchcraft definitely was probably based in an act of essentialism at that point. But like from a place of healing. Yes, exactly. From a place of healing and exactly. But I mean, if, if, if you, if you look at the environment now and you look at all the trauma that is being caused now, yes, it's happening to cisgender women, but there are, there's literally hundreds of trans women that are killed every year for the sole fact of them just being trans or just being feminine.

So, I mean, I, I would strongly urge you to try to begin to dismantle these ideas and move in a way that is more productive and proactive for the betterment of not only just the coven, but really humanity in general. 

[00:35:35] Amy Torok: Especially under that umbrella of witchcraft, which, as we've talked about, as far as I thought, was about the oneness, not the things that separate us, but the things that, Exactly.

Give us a common, and again, we're not talking about shared experience. I have a vagina and so do you. So whatever, but like sharing this earth, like space and time and air and heartbeats, you know, love the idea of love, the concept of like intelligence and consciousness, these are much more interesting to me.

Me then. Yeah. You know, oh, you also have a vagina. Great. Yeah. Like . Yeah, exactly. No, I've met enough vaginas that I have nothing in common to ever think that that's how I want to. Yeah. You know? Exactly. Cut out humanity. Exactly. I 

[00:36:24] Jacqueline Beaumont: mean, have horizons. I, it's, yeah, exactly. There there's no point in dividing ourselves because we're already divided so much that I think, like, what's the point in dividing when we can unify ourselves the, and 

[00:36:36] Amy Torok: you know, capitalism succeeds when we hate ourselves.

Because we're going to go out and buy whatever we can to make ourselves stop hating ourselves. Capitalism fails when we love ourselves 

[00:36:46] Jacqueline Beaumont: as we are. Exactly. Exactly. I think so. 

[00:36:50] Amy Torok: Tell me, I mean, we've already gone way over time, but I don't care. We're going to keep talking if that's okay with you, because I want you to talk about biohacking.

I'm going to assume again, that there are some listeners out there who have no idea what that means and hit us with the fascinating world of biohacking. 

[00:37:07] Jacqueline Beaumont: So again Transhumanism maximum evolutionary potential. Biohacking is the act of making both genetic and cybernetic enhancements to the human body and the human genome to adapt ourselves for a, another evolutionary potential.

So, for many biohackers this works on a genomic level where they're They're curing their lactose intolerance, or they're cutting out their a gene in their family that causes diabetes, or things like that, where they are making a betterment for their future family some are making, some people with money are using CRISPR to make their kids smarter which is so weird.

The scary world. Yeah, that's the scary world of it, yes, definitely. Definitely. And that's where I mean, that's where privilege comes in, where it's like, if you're able to pay for this kind of thing, then you can get it done. But I mean, there is a beautiful world of DIY biohacking and I, that's where I definitely lie.

But I think, I mean, for me, I use biohacking and I, I do, I practice biohacking. In a way where I can better my body to listen to the earth. So, I mean, I have several different biohack implants that I'm getting ready to put in myself that will basically, like, enhance my ability to connect with the earth on an electromagnetic scale or connecting myself to humidity levels.

There's, there's an amazing biohacker and, which I believe named Moon Rebus and Somebody named Moon 

[00:38:50] Amy Torok: is probably going to be a witch. Yeah, probably going to be a witch. Or at least his witchy parents or 

[00:38:54] Jacqueline Beaumont: whatever. Exactly. Moon has a seismometer in her body that she can feel the seismic tectonic movement of the Earth.

And so, she So, 

[00:39:06] Amy Torok: how, sorry, how, like, Moon has taken a like, an action, like a microchip? Like, what's the 

[00:39:13] Jacqueline Beaumont: physical Like, like, it takes many different forms, but normally it's, . Normally it's a like a chip or an RFID or a magnet, sorry. RFID. Oh, I can't, I can't get that right off the top of my head right now, but I'll put it in the notes.

Yeah. I can't get it off the top of my head. I said it and I was like, oh, shit. I don't know what that's going ask. But or magnets in the body that will basically create a sense of movement or some kind of output in order for you to gather that there's a new input of information. So it's not 

[00:39:45] Amy Torok: like swallowing something because then you would eliminate it.

Yes. 

[00:39:49] Jacqueline Beaumont: So like under the skin, or? Yeah, yeah. These sort of implants are done subdermally. Some of them are done Neurologically through the brain, which is a whole area that I'm wanting to dive into more so later on in my life. But there are people out there that have done implants that are, like, embedded into their brains.

Can you give an example of that? 

[00:40:14] Amy Torok: Yes. Like, not a specific 

[00:40:15] Jacqueline Beaumont: name or anything, but like, what? Well, Wait, what? A specific name like Neil Harbison. A huge biohacker he has an antenna that comes out of the back of his head around to the front, and he's colorblind. So he's trained his antenna to read colors, and it plays a song, er, like a, a key in his head, and so he can hear color.

So, like, when he's dressing himself in the morning, he can compose his outfit colours based on their sonic like, compatibility. 

[00:40:52] Amy Torok: What's the word for this where the sense, the related sense isn't the one, there's a word for it. And I think one of the witches that we profiled in season one even had this, where you, like, you smell 

[00:41:06] Jacqueline Beaumont: colours.

Yes. Oh, 

[00:41:08] Amy Torok: synesthesia. 

[00:41:10] Jacqueline Beaumont: Synesthesia. Yeah, there you go. There you go. You got it. Synesthesia. So he's like biohacking synesthesia. Basically, yeah. Yeah, so I mean there's many different variations of it, but like with Moon, if you see her performing these dances where her movements are a language of the seismic movement of the Earth.

So she can translate this in a bodily movement. In real time. In real time. And I believe she's working on one where she's getting it done in her foot so that she can feel the moon. So that basically her body is down on earth, but her feet are on the moon. 

[00:41:46] Amy Torok: Feel the moon? How does one 

[00:41:48] Jacqueline Beaumont: feel the moon?

The tectonic movement of the moon. Oh, that, like, seismic shifting. Yeah, exactly. I want to do that! Right? Yeah, yeah. She, she's a, she's an incredible biohacker. So, For me, I'm, I, I see it as a way to better my own body so that I can be more in tune with the earth. For lots of biohackers, they see it more so on like a, a genomic level where they're trying to fix something in their body chemically.

So yeah, like there, there's a. I forget exactly his name now, but he lives in Montreal, and he biohacked a cure for his lactose intolerance. Which is something so small, but at the same time, it's, it's incredibly radical, the idea that you can just fix something. And not like we're used 

[00:42:41] Amy Torok: to, like, with like, Orlon?

Yeah. You know, Orlan Mm-Hmm. Like plastic surgery was sort 

[00:42:46] Jacqueline Beaumont: of like her artistic mode. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But it was 

[00:42:50] Amy Torok: very much just about form. Mm-Hmm. that this 

[00:42:52] Jacqueline Beaumont: is about function. Mm-Hmm. definitely. Yeah. Yeah. This Neil Haron, uh, moon Rabis, they, they're cyborg artists, so they, they, they use their sense for.

Not just on a bodily level where they're trying to enhance their bodies, but they're trying to express something deeper than just their own humanity. Really cool. So yeah, I think Post humanity. Are we, are we entering 

[00:43:23] Amy Torok: the post human age? Soon. 

[00:43:27] Jacqueline Beaumont: I think soon. And what does that look like? Yeah. What does that feel like?

So many, there's so many different ways that it will express itself because I think, I think there shouldn't be just one specific way of seeing betterment for humanity. If it's like a mass thing where we cure cancer and there's like a genomic cure for cancer that we can just like erase it from our genes or like erase the possibility of HIV from our genes then That's really cool.

That's something that all of humanity would benefit from. But at the same time I think what's cool about biohacking and the whole idea of cybernetic post humanity is that everyone will be so completely different from each other. And we'll all be able to adapt our bodies depending on our own individuality.

And there's so many different ways that we can do that in order to better ourselves as individuals but also better ourselves as humans. a collective humanity. Because if we, if we think about it like a computer, the, the, the key thing within the movement of technology over the past few years is optimizing our systems and being more efficient with our energy.

And so, if we are able to run more efficiently, and if we're able to optimize our own biological systems, then we're able to optimize ourselves In a way where we can adapt and better our relation with the earth. So, yeah, biohacking is like, and transhumanism in general is just like this. It's, I, I honestly believe there's really no other choice.

Because we're kind of at a, an impasse, so to say. But yeah, really cool 

[00:45:15] Amy Torok: stuff. There, there are practical elements to this efficiency too. I know you feel pretty strongly about me eating. That we can change our whole efficiency globally 

[00:45:25] Jacqueline Beaumont: by, Yeah, there's a, there's a, this is a very hot topic. Yeah, I am vegan.

I see it as a way that I can adapt myself in my current localization. I can, I, I mean, I, I can't hunt. I, like, ethically, there, and, and I think that, I think, I, I had a, I had a run in with Biohack Info, which is another Instagram where they posted something about how in a post, in a completely maximized cybernetic post humanity, it's perfectly rational to our newfound power and strength in a way where we're hunting The life that didn't make it into a next cybernetic potential.

So, and they, they, they, they kind of said it was completely rational to believe that. And, I mean, from a socio economic 

[00:46:22] Amy Torok: standpoint, that sounds a bit scary to me. Right. Like, Yeah, very. We're the cyborgs and we're gonna hunt you that couldn't 

[00:46:30] Jacqueline Beaumont: Keep up. Yeah. So I'm terrified. Yeah, that's horrifying. Yeah, I was like, that's horrifying.

And and yeah, it was like this image of this cyborg with a bow and arrow. And I was just like, that's horrifying. And so basically I kind of clapped back and said like, that's probably like the least transhumanist thing you could possibly do. Then, I went on a rant, that rant got completely reposted onto the Instagram, and I kind of, I got a lot of interesting feedback from that.

Both positive and negative. It's funny, actually, they put They put my whole story up and that I said back to them because I did a verbalization of what I was feeling because I was really feeling it and they put a poll saying basically saying eat meat or nah I'm I'm encapsulating it but and then gave a poll yes or no And when I, I waited, I waited like 23 hours until the majority of the feedback came in because stories on Instagram last for 24 hours.

Exactly. In case you're, you're wondering why that marker and Exactly. And I, I finally clicked what my choice was and I, I saw that it was pretty much 50 50 mm-Hmm. . So in my eyes that's pretty half decent. I mean, where we're coming from. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, there's lots of biohackers that think that a meat only diet is the only way to go.

And I'm like, not exactly, but that's my own from, I mean, I, I don't have the option of ethically hunting. I, most people don't know how to ethically hunt and to think that in a, in a future society, we will all be perfectly, like, educated on ethical hunting. That's kind of naive. So, I, I, I mean, to be a vegan and to say that ethical hunting is perfectly fine is, uh, another hot topic that I'm probably going to get in hot water about, but I know Just email missingwitches at 

[00:48:46] Amy Torok: gmail.

com and if I decide to forward your email on to Jackie, I will. 

[00:48:51] Jacqueline Beaumont: Perfect. Thank you. So, yeah, it's I, for me, I see it as like, again with the changing planet, the planet doesn't have enough. to be able to keep supplying us with that. The planet is finite. Yes, exactly. The resources are finite, and we're going to reach a point where we're going to exhaust it all.

And they brought in, some people on the group chat were talking about like, the negative biohacking, and rare earth mineral mining is extremely damaging on the environment. The components that are required for technology. Yeah. So, they're, they're like, oh, well, well, the earth isn't going to be good anyway at that point.

And I'm just like, okay, well, yes, but you're thinking about it in a very specific way where that will, we're going to be just running down this rampant road of stuff. Like ripping things from here and ripping things from there and just like not caring about the environment but if we're able to biohack in a way and we're able to move forward in a way where we can ethically start to provide ourselves with these resources and Start to think more holistically about how us as a whole in like work with the planet then we can actually make a positive change for ourselves, but Yeah, I it's Yeah, that's a hot topic.

They're all hot topics. They're all hot topics, yes. Because they all come down to, ultimately, choice. Yes. 

[00:50:30] Amy Torok: Free will. Yep, completely. And, and, It becomes difficult because we know what we think is right. Yeah. And so we want everyone to do what we think is right because it's right. Yeah. But we have to keep our ears open and not, and not be so, cocky as to think that we don't have something to learn from, even from a meat eater.

[00:50:54] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Sometimes you gotta keep your eyes open. Yeah, and, and, you know, See their point of view. 

[00:51:01] Amy Torok: Yeah, and if you know, cognitive dissonance, like, really helps us to get through this. Oh yeah. You know? I'm not like a big, like, hey, everybody get your cognitive dissonance on, but like, sometimes if you just need to not think about it to get through your day, like witches, 

[00:51:16] Jacqueline Beaumont: just get through y'all's day.

Oh yeah. Get through your day. Existentialism is very real. Oh 

[00:51:22] Amy Torok: yeah. Yeah. So, Again, we're not making any judgement calls, you're bad if you're this, you're good if you're that, other than, like, to try, and to try. Period. I don't know why I tried 

[00:51:35] Jacqueline Beaumont: to carry on. Just educate yourself as best you possibly can about this kind of thing, and I think then try and make a choice that you feel is correct.

And be, like, if someone has an opposing point of view. view on it, then be able to state why you feel that way and clarify to them, like, I, I don't agree with that, and here's why. Yeah. Because that's gonna be much more 

[00:52:03] Amy Torok: But I personally feel like you should want your belief system to be challenged by as many people as possible.

Oh, definitely. Because if it doesn't stand up to that challenge, they've done you a favor. Exactly. 

[00:52:11] Jacqueline Beaumont: And if you, 

[00:52:13] Amy Torok: every time I've had to defend my thoughts, it's only made me more more focused because I've had to defend it. So I've had to think about it even more. Exactly. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Let me answer your question in my mind.

And that'd be even more resolved when we leave this. Exactly. And again, if somebody can knock your whole belief system out with four questions or three statements, then you really need it not 

[00:52:36] Jacqueline Beaumont: to happen. I mean, this is another whole rabbit hole, but like. F There's a documentary on Flat Earthers on Netflix,

I mean, 

[00:52:47] Amy Torok: we can laugh, but this 

[00:52:49] Jacqueline Beaumont: is like a problem. This is a, this is a big thing, and what, what I just found. So it was absolutely hilarious because we were able to watch it from not a perspective of these documentaries. trying to disprove them. They were just observing, as good documentators do, they just observe.

And these people, they were doing these experiments to try and prove themselves, and they got results that proved the opposite. Like, the Earth is round. The Earth is round. Shockingly, they're a scientific experiment. Exactly. And, and through these experiments that they had meticulously thought themselves through they, they disproved themselves.

But because it disproved themselves, they thought, well, something's wrong. Because they didn't get the results they were looking for. We must have miscalibrated this machine. Exactly. It's like, oh, well, like, the blades of grass were in the way. I'm like No, the blades of grass weren't deflecting the ray of light, like, three feet higher.

But, like, more 

[00:54:00] Amy Torok: terrifyingly terrifying than the flat earthers are the anti 

[00:54:02] Jacqueline Beaumont: vaxxers. Ugh. These people are killing people. 

[00:54:05] Amy Torok: Yeah. At least the flat earthers are just like, brr brr brr. Yeah. You know, they're just flat. Exactly, 

[00:54:10] Jacqueline Beaumont: they're just going about life. Anti vaxxers are 

[00:54:11] Amy Torok: killing children. Yes, exactly. Like, their toddlers.

Yeah. Like, you heard it here. 

[00:54:15] Jacqueline Beaumont: Yeah. No, vaccinate your kids, god damn it. 

[00:54:18] Amy Torok: Vaccinate your 

[00:54:19] Jacqueline Beaumont: kids, oh my god. Oh my god. That's like, that's like, I mean, that's like a very early stage of biohacking or moving forward, like, yeah, exactly. Like evolution has brought us to a place where these things are in our bodies or in our environment.

Why wouldn't you like, if all of humanity up until now has either died or survived based on being strengthened by this thing, then why wouldn't you try and get your kid the best chance to adapt to this environment? 

[00:54:52] Amy Torok: Question? But I think there's a lot of like, you know, and I think this would probably come up in a conversation about transgender people and about biohacking is that it's quote wrong because it's quote not natural, but like cars are also not natural, but that's fine.

So like, if you have this idea that's not natural or. Well, we've always done it this way. No, we haven't. No, we haven't. We haven't always done 

[00:55:23] Jacqueline Beaumont: it anyway. Exactly. 

[00:55:25] Amy Torok: And certainly, you're not understanding. Again, your hang ups shouldn't create legislation. Neither should my hang ups. And again, natural is a very 

[00:55:40] Jacqueline Beaumont: weird word.

Very weird word. Because, 

[00:55:44] Amy Torok: I mean Yeah. Everything in nature is natural. All of the components that we use to create technology Exactly. 

[00:55:53] Jacqueline Beaumont: Come from the earth. Yes. I mean, they, they came, I mean, physically they came from the earth in terms of minerals. They came from us. They came from our brains. Like, they are just as much a part of us as we are to each other.

And a 

[00:56:13] Amy Torok: wheel, like a wagon wheel is as much technology as the internet 

[00:56:18] Jacqueline Beaumont: is technology. Definitely. 

[00:56:19] Amy Torok: Exactly. So, I mean, just think about all the things that are technology that you're using from a fork. Yeah, A fork is like a . 

[00:56:26] Jacqueline Beaumont: Exactly. Yeah. Your tv, 

[00:56:29] Amy Torok: like everything, the, the street that you drive your car on is a marvel of technology.

Mm-Hmm. . sO again, we can't get stuck in this like, well, this is where we're at now, so this is how it is and this is how it will be. Because certainly a humanity has been changing the world since Oh yeah. 

[00:56:44] Jacqueline Beaumont: We came to be Exactly. . Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So. 

[00:56:49] Amy Torok: I mean, that sounds like kind of a nice wrap up, but I'm not satisfied.

So give my, give our listeners the gospel according to Jackie. The one, I know it's tough, right? That's a big one. I know, and I ask every witch I talk to this question, and it's the only time in the interview where most of them go, Shit. Wow. Just like In 30 seconds or less, what's your message to the universe?

I'll give you a minute if you need it.

I'll give you a clue. A lot of people just say like, 

[00:57:27] Jacqueline Beaumont: be kind. Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. So it doesn't 

[00:57:31] Amy Torok: have to be like, Jean Paul Sartre. 

[00:57:37] Jacqueline Beaumont: I, I think honestly the, the, the best thing we can do is to just listen. We just need to listen and to be more active about listening. Because when we listen we can fully comprehend, again, not just the voices of the people around us, and from all of their different perspectives, but also if we are more actively listening, we're, we're seeing things deeper than what they are on the surface.

So, yeah, I think that's my Just listen. Yeah, just listen. Because when 

[00:58:12] Amy Torok: we're talking, we're not 

[00:58:13] Jacqueline Beaumont: what? Listening. 

[00:58:16] Amy Torok: Thank you so much, Jackie. You are amazing. It is my pleasure. that I, and I can't wait to see what you do. So young, 

[00:58:23] Jacqueline Beaumont: such a baby, I can't wait to see, 

[00:58:26] Amy Torok: you know, the world that you create. 

[00:58:28] Jacqueline Beaumont: Thank you.

And I hope to live in it.

[00:58:45] Amy Torok: all. You members of the missing riches coven. Thank you all for listening to season two of the Missing Witches podcast. We're off next Sunday, but please come back Wednesday, May 1st, for our Beltane Bonfire, where we explore the magical world of Music Witches. Until then, hit us up at missingwitchesatgmail.

com or on social media at missingwitches and blessedbe.

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