Today we're joined by Ysha AKA Activist Witch and Imogen AKA Sapling Tarot to talk about finding hope, finding magic, and finding our roles in the revolution!!
Ysha shares the possibility that we can wake up every morning and say to ourselves: Today is the day we change the world! Imogen asks us to feel the difference between charity and mutual aid.
Listen now, transcript below:
Ysha (she/they) is a Fat Queer Non-binary Autistic Immigrant Witch of Colour of Egyptian heritage, raised in Italy and now living in South Wales, UK who makes content at the intersection of Witchcraft and Activism on YouTube as Activist Witch. They are the intersectionality educator at Glitter Cymru, the grassroot organisation for queer people of colour in Wales and chair of Glitter Sibling, the glitter branch dedicated to marginalised genders.
Imogen is a Tarot reader living in Scotland.
Find them both on YouTube:
Imogen https://www.youtube.com/@SaplingTarot
Ysha https://www.youtube.com/@activistwitch
Ysha and Imogen are two parts of the team working on Witches For Palestine!
Fundraising for Cwtches to Gaza, a grassroots mutual-aid organisation supporting Palestinian refugees in Egypt and evacuation funds.
JOIN THE FUNDRAISER:
1) make a donation of £5 or more to @cwtchestogaza2024 via their PayPal.me/giasgirl1
2) send proof of donation at witchesforpalestine@gmail.com
You will receive an email reply with numbers assigned to you and That will be your Raffle entry. Cwtches to Gaza get your donation immediately and can help the families they support in Cairo and the evacuation fund for Remas (13), Omar (3), and their mum Sana.
You can win:
Tarot readings
Grimoire pages
Custom mood boards
1:1 counselling sessions
And more are added every day!
Check out the list of witches and prizes involved at https://witchesforpalestine.start.page/
TRANSCRIPT:
Amy: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Missing Riches Podcast. I just knocked my keyboard over. Um, this is very typical of me. I'm Amy and I am a disaster. It's fine. It's fine. Nobody comes into this world perfect. We will, none of us will leave perfect. And I think that that's a good start. For this conversation.
Amy: How boring
Ysha: it would be otherwise! Right!
Amy: That's the voice of Isha. I will introduce you very quickly. Isha is a self described bat. queer, non binary, artistic, immigrant, witch of color, of Egyptian heritage, raised in Italy, and now living in South Wales in the UK, who makes content at the intersection of witchcraft and activism on YouTube as Activist Witch.
Amy: You might know Isha as Activist Witch on Instagram and on YouTube. They are the intersectionality educator at Glitter Simru, the grassroots organization for queer people of color in Wales, and the chair of Glitter Sibling. I have to pause on Glitter Sibling and say it one more time. Glitter Sibling, the glitter branch dedicated to marginalized.
Amy: Genders! And our good friend Imogen, Scottish terror reader, is going to jump into this conversation a little later once we dive into some of our other subjects. So hi Imogen, thanks for being here, and hi Isha. How are you?
Ysha: Hello, thank you so much for having us. It is a bit of a dream come true. We've been fan-girling about this for a while.
Ysha: There's no point in lying about that. Uh, very well. Very well. Thank you. Thank you so much. Just thank you so much for having us because it's a bit of a dream like. I think one of the things that Imogen and I bonded over was that I gifted them the New Moon Magic book.
Amy: That's New Moon Magic by Risa Dickens and Amy Torek.
Ysha: Indeed. So it's just, uh, this feels coming a bit full circle.
Amy: And let me expand the question, who are you today? We, we are firm believers that you're under no obligation to be who you were five minutes ago. So I just want to know, in addition to how are you, who are you?
Ysha: Um, I'm still the fat, queer, non binary, autistic, witch of colour.
Ysha: I am a bit, uh, out of touch from my body today, which is something that I will dedicate the to, um, but other than that, I am Uh, very grateful 12 year old in my head, because, uh, I come from a stupidly small village in Italy. And, uh, think of all the steps that I've taken that for some bizarre and amazing reason brought me here.
Ysha: I'm stupid and grateful about. So I'm a very grateful child at the moment.
Amy: I love that. I'm going to adopt grateful child as one of my personalities for sure. We talked about this a bit beforehand, but, um, There's a polar vortex in the UK and here in the woods of Quebec, it is freezing rain. It's dark at like four o'clock.
Amy: So I was hoping you could start us off with a little invocation to Hestia and help us bring the goddess of the hearth and warm us for this conversation.
Ysha: So, yeah, for those who wouldn't know, uh, Hestia, Vesta in the Roman form. is my patron deity and, uh, she saved my life and my ass more times than I can count.
Ysha: And indeed, um, I, I see the point. Coziness, warmth, the entire concept of autumn and being safe in a place, to me, goes to her. So, um, Weird thing, we're gonna try this in English because I was saying to Amy before, my invocations to Vesta, usually in the morning, have come naturally in Italian despite the fact that I haven't been living 20 years.
Ysha: It's the only thing that I still speak Italian about. Let's try, let's try if I can manage in English, come on.
Ysha: Mother Vesta, at this time of tumultuous coldness in the world, in physical and unfortunately at times in spiritual ways, We beseech your presence and your warmth to remind us that there is always a safe place for us when we look inwards and when we look to you. Yeah.
Amy: Thank you. I feel warmer already. Um, how did, how did Hestia come to be your, your patron deity?
Ysha: Uh, completely accidentally. I've made like an hour long video about it because I won't bore you with that here. But in short, I was having my second brush with homelessness in my life. And, uh, it was a very bad time in general on a social level here in the UK. A lot of people were getting homeless because of law that were introduced.
Ysha: And, uh, everybody was in the same boat. So it was hard for everyone to find a place to rent. Uh, which as a millennial, I don't expect to ever buy it. So rent is where I was at. And suddenly I, I just started to practice like in the, in the five months before. And I looked up a spell about securing a property.
Ysha: And for some reason, something clicked in my head and went, uh, Wasn't Vesta the, the Roman goddess of, you know, the house and the heart? Ah, wouldn't, wouldn't hurt. Ask for her help. And that spell accidentally became a bargain, a deal, saying, You get me a place that is safe and comfortable. And for every day that I'm in the house that is safe and comfortable, I'll light you a candle.
Ysha: And she found me a better one than the one that I asked her for, on so many levels. And so that's, that's, that's where it started.
Amy: So you are activist witch, that's your handle on YouTube and on Instagram. And obviously we're going to get deep into the activist part. But I want to start with the witch piece.
Amy: Like what drew you into the craft? How did you become a witch?
Ysha: So I was born and raised in Italy. And, uh, Italy, I was in a village as well, like I wasn't in a main town, my village is a farmer's village and it's 600 people, where I was the only person of color, which I do not recommend someone to experience.
Ysha: Um, but, uh, my generations of grandparents just, just worked the fields. I was the first person that actually didn't do that in, uh, Italy. youth, but I was still raised on the farm. And we have a huge, uh, um, tradition of tarot. I realized in hindsight, because that's kind of sort of where it comes from. Like, I mean, the Visconti sports are very likely comes from playing cards that were from the Middle East.
Ysha: So let's not claim that Italians invented that. It's another thing that Orientalism is affecting things for. Sorry, the activist is coming through. But yeah, back to the witchy part. It's something that was around and I didn't realize was what other people call witchcraft. It's not something that I necessarily practiced or thought about practicing as I was living in Italy.
Ysha: But I've been around character mantras forever. And the propelling thing that happened was a couple of years ago. My pet cat, Wisk has died very suddenly. And, uh, I don't have a good, who has a good relationship with death. I have a particularly bad relationship with death though. And, uh, my spouse, who is a very practically minded person, like they used to study physics.
Ysha: So every time that there was a discussion about spiritual, I always had the feeling that they were like, if it helps you, like not necessarily in a patronizing way, but, you know. And bizarrely, when that loss in the family, because that's what it was, happened, they suggested, why don't we do a ritual to help Uiska pass over?
Ysha: And the ritual was basically a spell asking Persephone for safe passage. And that's, that's what got us started. And, uh, I think, I, it's, it's very bizarre. To this day, I can't quite. say or know what came to them. They made it sound like the most natural thing in the world, and they practice with me now, or both witches.
Ysha: But, uh, it was a thing that I didn't expect from them. And it took me a moment to, because I'm very skeptically minded. I don't know if it's, uh, uh, my autism, my need to find information. I don't know. So I still try to bring those two together, but be whatever it was, it brought me a lot of hope, and it managed to focus my attention on something proactive rather than just living with the grief that would just lead me to desperation.
Ysha: So if that was just desperation, this brought me some kind of hope. And whatever the other result is, the fact that it brought me hope,
Amy: That's the thing, right? Like, people are like, um, Oh, well, it's a placebo, or it's this, or it's that. But the thing about placebos, like, medical science will tell us that Placebos work more than they should. Like, to a bizarre degree, that they work more than they should, and so I don't know if I think that magic is a placebo, I think that it's more real than that, but even if it is, if it helps, if it gives you hope when you're feeling hopeless, then it's working, and it's real, right?
Ysha: Yes, that's exactly that.
Amy: Yeah, yeah. And you have said, and you just spoke about how tarot is the most prominent part of your practice. In one of your YouTube videos, I had to laugh because you said, um, In your Italian village, there were two Cardamansers, and you had to choose a Cardamanser like you choose a football team, which, I mean, in Britain, it's a very, very big deal.
Amy: Like, you choose your football team, soccer, for those of us who are in, um, North America, um, my spouse is Scottish, so we say football around this house as well. Um, and that you choose your Cardamanser like you choose your football team. Football team. Oh yeah. Serious business. It was. And so how, how would people choose, I'm so curious about this, like town where card is football, I'm sure,
Ysha: to be honest with you what the criteria was.
Ysha: I know that the one that my mother went to was known and I knew her as Maria Chica, which was. Maria the blind woman, which in hindsight still makes me think. Were we trying to like fetishize disability? Because it doesn't, again, sorry, it's the activist that keeps coming on through these things. But in hindsight, I have to think about those things.
Ysha: Um, I just know that there was a choice clearly made because We should go into the anthropology of Italy, which is not necessary here, but, um, Italy is a very young country. Oh, we love,
Amy: we love a sidetrack. Please anthropologize us.
Ysha: Italy is a very, despite the perception, is a very young country. It's been a country for 160 years.
Ysha: It wasn't Italy until 1861. It was all small city states. So between the fall of Rome in the 400s. And 1861, it was all city states. It was in the Italian peninsula, but it was far from being one thing. And, uh, it's something that Italy still carries. I think it takes longer to move away from that mentality of, I need to fear my neighbor.
Ysha: Because, again, being small city states, you could disappear from a day to the other, because they would come to the walls, and the city would fall, and it would become a dependency of something else. And that kind of mentality is still very, very strong in Italy. So the idea of having, uh, two Cartoon Masters, you chose one, and you sort of also chose the people that came because they go with them.
Ysha: And it's questionable as an approach, but it's the approach that you are taught, and therefore comes naturally to you until you start to look into it, and you're like, But this doesn't fit. Why do I have to have this natural animosity towards someone? But it's unfortunately the kind of, uh, natural way that you are taught.
Ysha: Very least in my village, and unfortunately with the people that I'm still in contact with in Italy, they confirmed to me that unfortunately that's still a kind of mentality that is there. But there are good people, and not necessarily just because they run away like me, because I was lucky enough to run away.
Ysha: But it's a country with a lot of cultural issues that it's hard to go down to the bone of, because there's a lot of denial, because there's been denial after World War II. Italy had colonies, but nobody talks about it. Italy doesn't study. I didn't study that Italy had colonies, just because losing World War II, they were given to Britain.
Ysha: Britain had to deal with their colonial past, Italy didn't. So it's that kind of thing. And unfortunately, that kind of sort of looking behind your shoulder Uh, manifests in everything, even in the fact that you choose a tarot reader, and therefore you are with some people, and you have to look behind your shoulder from everybody else.
Ysha: Even in a village that is 600 people, like, we should all be a team here. Uh, but yeah, that's, that's how it works, unfortunately.
Amy: Yeah, you know, um, Sylvia Federici, I wish I had the quote right in front of me, but, um, one of her contentions is that, um, you know, the witch hunts, um, fostered capitalism because if you suspect your neighbor, then there's that isolationism that comes with that.
Amy: If you can't trust any of your neighbors to quote unquote not be witches, then we get this individualism that we see here in the West where it's, you know, every man for himself. We've lost our sense of community, we've lost our sense of collaboration, because we're always looking over our shoulder at the witch who's going to take us down, right?
Ysha: Yeah, Sylvia knew something when she was calibrating the witch, didn't she?
Amy: Definitely. And where does the, where does the Egyptian part of your heritage factor in, or how, to your practice? It's
Ysha: so It's, uh, something that I'm still exploring because despite, uh, being half Egyptian, my father was Egyptian. I, I've never even been physically to Egypt myself.
Ysha: And, um, my parents separated when I was one year old. So I never actually had that influence really. Uh, so I don't, I had this perception of considered looking intoemitism because technically it's. I was like, oh, can I learn actually something from my heritage through that? And it's something that I'm still learning and debating, uh, something that has helped me a lot to get more of an understanding has been, uh, um, the collection, Bringing Race to the Table, about the people of color in the Pagan community.
Ysha: Because I was, Genuinely thinking, um, especially at the beginning when I started to make content, I had other content creators come to me say, Oh, you have the entitlement because you are genetically Egyptian. You have the entitlement to talk about that stuff. So that's what you should do. That should be your niche.
Ysha: And it didn't sit right with me, but I didn't quite know why until I bring your race to the table. And I was like, Oh, that's an amazing racist microaggression right there. And I was like, I know that this one, but I can't say why. And that's why I was high. Um, Because I don't have contacts and connection to that culture, if I were to look into it, it would be to actually get that connection.
Ysha: It's far from me the idea of being someone that could claim than educate, educating others through that, because that even being Egyptian myself, because I'm not immersed in the culture, it would reach to myself of cultural appropriation. And it's been an interesting journey to try and understand how I feel comfortable learning about it.
Ysha: Um, something that actually was, uh, unexpectedly teaching was, uh, we'll talk later about Witches for Palestine, but, uh, um, the people involved in the Witches for Palestine of Kutuz to Gaza were the mutual aid group that I'm directly in contact with. They work with people in Cairo, they have been to Cairo, and working together, like I saw all the, you know, video messaging and stuff, and when they were in Cairo themselves, And it was, uh, an experience, put it this way, that because that was the first time that I've actually seen normal people be and live in the place that I come from, that by chance I wasn't born there.
Ysha: I could, I could have, could have happened. And there's a lot of conflictual stuff for, uh, cultural issues, like, um, not necessarily to have to go in details here, but, um, You know, Egypt was one of the countries that up until the 90s had a 95 percent presence of FGM, febrile genital mutilation still. Which then brings thought to my head of, what if I had been born there?
Ysha: Uh, I, I've never met my grandmother, but you know, it brings these, these, these thoughts. So, there's, there's a conflictual feeling there. And I am trying, genuinely the thing, uh, about my practice, uh, that, uh, has been more valuable in that. Is, uh, my ancestral practice, and thankfully I do have one picture of my paternal grandparents, just one, but I have it, um, and it's there, and I dedicated a tarot deck with them, and, uh, I, I'm trying to work through these to understand, uh, all sides of it, to then understand what's worth bringing in the future with me, but it's a work in progress.
Amy: I'm so glad that you brought up, you know, culture as separate from heritage. Um, because I think that there is like this idea that if you do like a 23andMe and it comes up, Oh, I'm, I'm 5 percent this, that like you say, you have some entitlement to that. But growing up in a culture, being immersed in a culture, you know, creates who we are almost as much as that DNA.
Amy: So I think if you're missing that piece, then that's something to really consider.
Ysha: Like, I think that the entitlement idea from other people came from the fact that, oh, if you have to take the flak of it, so the racism of being Arab, you might as well take the nice bits as well. I, I, I do understand, uh, uh, partially the point of view.
Ysha: And again, I do understand that. That's probably that's what makes me think, Oh, it's, it's, it's worth looking into it. But you know, the, the line always comes between, it's worth looking into it for me and my practice and not as it was proposed to me, Oh, you can be the Egyptian witch. Why are you not the Egyptian witch?
Ysha: Because I've never, you can sell that. That
Amy: was
Ysha: exactly the way that it was said. And I was like, no, I'm, I'm not the Egyptian witch. I've never been the Egyptian person. So, um, that's, that's, that's the, what helps me even look into it and understand the difference. So, I might look into it for me. I'm definitely not going to be the one that sells that to others through me.
Ysha: I don't have absolutely the ability, nor the entitlement, nor I will ever have that, just because my surname is Arabic and I'm half Egyptian, because I've never been there. And those things need recognition.
Amy: I do have one more question before, you, you brought up Witches for Palestine, obviously we're going to get right into that, but I have one more question first, and that's the, to me, something that, you know, unites witches of all varying practices, globally, um, is that feeling of being different.
Amy: And so I'm wondering, like, you are an autistic witch, you're a queer witch, you're a non binary witch. These are things that, listeners, I'm doing big scare quotes with my fingers here. Things that make you different. And so I'm wondering how those aspects of your identity or of your personality have influenced your craft in ways that you think other people might not.
Amy: connect to magic?
Ysha: So, um, well, the first thing that comes to mind in, uh, I know it seems like I'm giving a CV when I give the adjectives of descriptions of who I am, but that's, um, you know, it took me time to understand that those are the way that if I describe myself, people, then I'm going to have a vague idea of who they're dealing with.
Ysha: I think the queer side, both in terms of identity and of sexuality, because it applies to both for me being a non binary person who's also demi pansexual. Uh, it's uh, a lot of what I heard about witchcraft was very gendered. was very, the, the divine feminine and divine masculine, the maiden mother crone, uh, the tarot itself or the courts or the emperor and the empress, there's just this gender binary.
Ysha: That was the first thing that I was like, but I'm not going to like this. So what am I going to do about it? And thankfully, because again, in my current practice, I got around it like a couple of years ago, there was already like the amazing work of Charlie, Charlie Curry Burgess and Radical Tarot. And immediately I got around, Oh, okay, we have already deconstructed this.
Ysha: Amazing, because otherwise, there would have been a lot of work for me to do. Thankfully somebody else took over. Um, my, being a person of color, is, uh, again, it's been interesting in exploring how do we bring, uh, the differences together because the entire reason why I opened the channel, in 2023, was because I went to a pagan conference here in South Wales.
Ysha: South Wales is mainly white and Celtic Carid, Venoviano, and all those things are part of the Celtic pantheon and the Bardic tradition here. And my idea was, if you are on any slice of the wheel of privilege, which is not the centre, so you're not a cis white hat able man, They speak English and all of that.
Ysha: You must understand that the system doesn't quite work, and it should be easy to grow sympathy with other people on the, on the other slices of the wheel. So in my innocence, I went to this event, and once there, I realized that I was the only person of color. Uh, and by all means, I have white passing privilege at times.
Ysha: Uh, it sort of, you know, Goes at times and at times not because I have an accent here in the UK. It's Italian by all means, but it opens, you know, the door and then they hear my full name, which is an extension of it. So it's, it's all. So it's been interesting to understand that there is still work worth doing about the deconstruction, not only of gender, but also of the natural assumption that white is the fault.
Ysha: Does it need to be the fault? And if it is the fault, do we need to fetishize and put orientalism on things? And so the exoticism that we fetishize, because there's a lot of, um, I would like to say involuntary cultural appropriation in the witchcraft community, but I've also seen that sometimes it's just literally the carelessness of the being used of, no, why don't I have access to everything?
Ysha: Um, so there, that's also been something interesting to explore and understand what can I bring to it to tell people, and teach sounds like a bad word, do something collaborative so that people can understand, oh, I've never thought about this. And something that has been, I think, useful in that, especially since I started to speak about Palestine, is giving the people the understanding of, you You might not have this perception, but I'm Arab.
Ysha: Hi. So any kind of prejudice you might have had before Not even in a negative way, but you know, even the white saviourism, yeah, no, this is, you want an example, this is an example. And, uh, because for some reason people think that I am well spoken at times. I think it's just because I come from a neo Latin language.
Ysha: And so, when I miss a word in English, I go to Latin, and sometimes it works. But because of that, I think it helps with, uh, trying and making things more real. And again, I do. believe necessarily in teaching, but there's this natural then collaboration. I'm here. Maybe you don't know another person that is Arab and non binary and autistic and all of this, but hey, I'm here.
Ysha: I'm real. And guess what? You can ask me questions. You don't have to do inference. Um, so that's for the part on autism. I will wait for Imogen, because Imogen is one of the best things that have ever happened to me joining the witchcraft community. We share more than a brain cell. Uh, and, uh, uh, we, we both have this experience of autism and the way that it makes us approach our practice.
Ysha: Uh, and, uh, it's very soothing. Uh, image and actually as I think today when we're recording put out a video where we were both chatting and the simple way in which we see things the same way, because evidently our brains You'll get it. And it's, it's a joy. It's nice to feel you're, you're right. You mentioned all of these feels like you're different.
Ysha: True. But then it also means that when you find one person that gets it, Life makes sense.
Amy: Let's invite that one person who gets it. Hi Imogen, can you unmute for us? I'll start with, who are you and how are you?
Imogen: Hi Amy, that's quite the introduction. Hi, yes, I, I am that one person. You have many people, Isha, there are, there are so many others.
Imogen: Um, but yeah, I'm a, I'm a tarot reader over on the west coast of Scotland. Uh, I go by Sapling Tarot as my kind of tarot name, YouTube channel, all that kind of stuff. But my main thing is making tarot and the kind of magic witchy goodness sort of as inclusive and accessible as possible in ways that don't feel like kind of box ticking exercises.
Imogen: So like, just kind of, we have a diversity quota and that's more, we're going to make sure that, but it's just like, you know, the, the world is made up of different groups of people and I want people to feel not just represented, but, or like tolerated, but kind of not to be really naff, but like loved and like kind of held in it.
Imogen: And yeah. Um,
Amy: I want people to feel loved too.
Imogen: Yeah. I mean, that's just, that's it, isn't it? That's all we really want. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'm a, I'm another autistic, uh, queer, non binary, uh, person existing in the UK, and, uh, working with Isha and getting to know Isha through this, this space has been an unbelievable privilege.
Amy: Tell me about how you came to, uh,
Imogen: Oh, um, well, I have been reading Tarot for the best part of like 15 years. Um, I like, uh, Isha's wonderful partner, Raven. I was introduced to her. to, you know, the gateway to witchcraft that is tarot, um, by a beloved next door neighbor who was like, she was a sociologist, she was an anthropologist, she had qualifications coming out of her ears.
Imogen: And then one day she asked my mum, I think, if she wanted a tarot reading and asked if I wanted one too, and I don't know if I would be reading tarot for 14 year olds at this point. Um, some ethical qualms in there, I guess, but you know, she was, she was a lovely person and she gave me a very, very thorough tarot reading.
Imogen: Uh, she did a past life reading, which again, I'm like, that's some pretty heavy, that's bringing in the big guns for the teenager. She did this whole, This whole thing and just kind of, uh, blew my tiny mind wide open. And so tarot was like my main thing for a long time, but then I I have been, well, I'm autistic, so I've basically been disabled my whole life, but I've been more like, uh, visibly disabled, I suppose, for the past eight or so years.
Imogen: And I think, you know, you were saying about people coming to witchcraft. Because they feel a bit different. I think also it can be like, well, not saying that people tend to turn to the Witchcraft out of like desperation or whatever, but when suddenly the scales fall from your eyes and you realise that maybe the world isn't built the way you thought it was and, you know, things like fairness and justice and, and all of that can kind of start to sort of fall apart a bit.
Imogen: Because, like, I'm I'm white British. I, you know, I'm immensely privileged in terms of that wheel of privilege that Isha was talking about. So, although like I had difficulties in ways, it wasn't in a way that made me see the cracks in the system the way that it was until, um, I was a young adult. And suddenly those cracks became very apparent.
Imogen: And that was when Witchcraft and I think my autistic experience up until that point was kind of resenting the fact that I had a human body flesh suit and wanting to just be like a brain navigating the world with no attachment to any sort of physical realm. And so my, the other kind of way into witchcraft was realizing that I had a body and that body has opinions about the way that I've been living my life up until that point.
Imogen: And so like connecting to my body. body and the land and the world at large and realizing that I was a part of something so much bigger than me and, uh, that I was not just kind of a, that scary capitalist cog in the machine, but that I was one little bit of a mycelial network that we're all in it together.
Imogen: And that that was. I suppose my witchcraft and my politics essentially are deeply interlinked. And I think that's where me and Aisha have an awful lot in common. Where it's that, that part of the community, like you were talking about, the collaborative, the, that's, my flavor of witchcraft.
Amy: Yeah, I think what witches and activists inherently have in common is that we think that we can change the world with what we do and what we say and what we think.
Amy: And I really want to get into this. Um, I think that, A lot of people do come to Witchcraft out of desperation, and I think that that's okay, you know, when you look at the material world and it's really not giving you anything that you want or need, then you have to look somewhere else, right? And I love this idea of including in our notions of collaboration, um, Resolving the mind body dilemma, and if you see your mind and body as separate, to sort of think of them as collaborators as opposed to enemies.
Amy: I have chronic illness myself, and mental health, physical health, and I had the same. I saw my body as the enemy, and it's, I'm still working on that practice of like embodying it. my mind and, and seeing my, my corporeal nature as like part of who I am that should also be loved and, and tenderized. Maybe
Imogen: not tenderized.
Imogen: Tenderized
Amy: is not the word, but you know that I should treat with tenderness and care in the same way that I would another human. Both of you, whoever wants to jump in first, why is collaboration so important in the work of activism, in the work of witchcraft, both?
Ysha: You go for it. Um, because humans are still Gregario's animals. And if I say that, and I've tried to do without humans for a very long, for my entire existence, the reason I escaped Italy was literally because, okay, I don't work with people, people don't like me, I can do this on my own. Um, no, we, we, I genuinely believe that it's a habit.
Ysha: It's, it's something that hasn't left our inner needs as animals and, uh, recognition Like understanding that there's a part of you in someone else that answers to you and you suddenly see that on one point, you share a vision of what life and what the world, I mean, you're a skill part, but you share it with someone else.
Ysha: It's not just you in your head. I genuinely, every time that that happens to me, that's the meaning of life. Oh my gosh. Like we, we don't know each other. We have, we come from different experiences and yet we have both come to this understanding. There is nothing more precious to me and, uh, it comes naturally, like, it comes on every side of life, but of course it comes with, with witchcraft and with activism.
Ysha: And I would argue that they are not two different things enough to use different words at the point because it's, it's all about the understanding that, things are not okay or fair, or if we share a sense of right or wrong, we do understand that this is not right. And we, ideally we can do something about making it right.
Ysha: And I was literally telling, I think this morning, I woke up my wife saying, Oh my God, he's missing witches day, which I think I also woke up Imogen the same way, like eight in the morning with a Oh my God, he's missing witches day. And I woke up Raven the same way. I was like, come on, come on. Today. We change the world.
Ysha: And realistically, uh, what I've come to understand, I've shared content for so long, and always with the ambition of can this be a grain of sand in the change that there will be in a hundred years? And, uh, I like to say it changes the world. It need to change. It needs to change one bit of one thought in one person.
Ysha: If I have done that, if I have brought one piece of information that someone can re evaluate what they thought they knew so far, I've done my bit in the world.
Amy: I think you just said that what will be the title of this episode, and maybe I will even get it as a tattoo. Today is the day we change the world. Yeah. Today is the day we change the world, but to wake up every day And to say that, today is the day we change the world. I just, I'm going to like hold that as a practice, as a morning practice.
Amy: Today is the day we change the world. So tell me about Witches for Palestine. Imogen, do you want to start? Um, it's a fundraiser, it's a collaboration. Tell me everything.
Imogen: Oh, it's how we change the world, obviously. Obviously. So it's, I mean, it's Ayesha's baby. Uh, that I am so grateful to be a part of as like, a little administrative gremlin.
Imogen: You get, if you get emails and stuff, you want emergency, that's
Ysha: me. Uh, is not doing, uh, um, is, is, you're not being graceful to yourself. Okay. I could not. Don't let the spray bottle out. The, the things that you brought is so much more than I mean, don't you dare. Okay.
Imogen: Continue and remember who you are. Okay, anyway, Witches for Palestine is Isha's baby.
Imogen: It is. We're in the second phase right now, but the first phase was, uh, a massive raffle with some incredible prizes and a big prize draw and stuff that was raising money for Medicaid for Palestinians. And that was earlier on in the year. The current phase is a similarly incredible raffle, but now we have a slightly higher profile and so even more people are contributing prizes.
Imogen: It's uh, we've made like a little mini website so you can see contributors and things, but this time the money is going to Kutchas for Gaza, who are an incredible little grassroots mutual aid group out of Cardiff, uh, Isha's hometown, but Hometown. I'm saying it's your hometown. Current residence
Amy: hometown.
Amy: Yeah.
Imogen: Correct. They are working with people in Cairo. They've been going to Cairo, getting Palestinian refugees re situated and, um, paying for rent, paying for mattresses, paying for all sorts of like that real manageable help, which is where you really feel the difference between charity and mutual aid is that you can see.
Imogen: The real world impact of what you're doing. You know, there are toys for kids whose lives have been destroyed. . It is, it is tangible, immediate effect that, you know, your, your pounds, your dollars are going towards. And so for every five British pounds, uh, we convert it. And, you know, round it to the nearest pound, and, um, for every five British pounds you get an entry to the raffle, you can win, uh, spiritual counseling sessions, you can win courses, you can, like, we've got well over a thousand pounds worth of prizes right now, and I think, as it stands, we probably have enough prizes for as many people as have bought tickets.
Imogen: So, it's, uh, it is a good return on investment if you decide to. to contribute to this, uh, this wonderful project, and you can also, you can follow Kitches for Gaza on Instagram and see this, this tangible real world impact that the money is making.
Amy: Isha, can you tell our listeners, um, precisely how they make their donation, where they send it, and so on?
Ysha: So, um, The only thing that I would add is that, you know, at the beginning we mentioned, oh, Isha also happens to be with Glitter Camry and Glitter Siblings. Uh huh. Glitter Siblings and Camry being the association, grassroots organization for queer people of color in Wales. I basically, anytime that there's stuff that can be done in content, I'm like, I can do this, let me do this, let me bring it to people.
Ysha: With, uh, the phase one, we did a Q and a with two Palestinian people so that people could learn you can. You have never picked a book about Palestine and you think that it's a complicated issue because it's all the media tells you when you have two hours, you listen to these two people answer every question, even inflammatory questions with a grace and receipts in a way that I've never seen before.
Ysha: And you learn everything that you needed to know about the last 117 years of Palestine and . In this phase, we have done an interview with Amy, which is, uh, one of the people that runs, which is to Gaza, who's been to Cairo and all of that. And that's actually just out an hour. And they are both, uh, they're linked on all the materials that we have, like on the, which is for Palestine page, which Imogen did from scratch.
Ysha: I would've know where to start with that. But, uh, yeah, there's, um, there's the link to also the, the q and a and the interview with Amy. And, uh, you literally see that all the things that, like, Imogen talked about, all the ways that the money helps. This time, it doesn't go through GoFundMe, it doesn't go through anything.
Ysha: The donation is literally done to the PayPal of Kutches2Gaza, which has links everywhere. Am I gonna say the Uur L If I don't remember how to spell it, you are gonna find the links, but it's PayPal me.
Amy: Don't worry. Listeners, we're gonna put so many links in the show notes, so if and on Instagram and because I'm like everywhere, , we're gonna, we're gonna attempt the URL right now though.
Ysha: Okay. PayPal me slash gs girl. One G-I-A-S-G-I-R-L. One. And, uh, you will see I see Imogen nodding.
Amy: Yeah. So I think you got it right. You got the
Ysha: spelling right. Uh, you'll see that it's the PayPal of Amy Lewis, which again, One out of which is together. The money goes directly to her. And I think they lead the kind of work that they do that just to getting this money is insanity.
Ysha: And you again, see on their socials, the receipt for every single thing, every single thing that he buys every single request that they get all the families that they work with. And after you've done this donation, you send a proof of this donation in any way, like you, you forward to us the confirmation from PayPal, you send us a screenshot, whichever you like at the email address, which is for Palestine at the gmail.
Ysha: com. I'm not going to spell that because I'm not good
Amy: at
Ysha: this. That email, uh, gets to me and Imogen. And, uh, as soon as we get onto it, remember, this is all voluntary, so it might not even happen immediately, but we will get to you. And we will reply to that email with numbers assigned to you. Those numbers are the numbers of the raffle.
Ysha: And in January, we will do the prize draw. The first time around, we did a live, literally, it was a number generator, random. org, and that's how the prizes are assigned. And that's, I think, how we're going to do it this time as well. And, uh, yeah, we have such a Can I swear?
Amy: Yes, please do. Fuck yeah, you can. We
Ysha: have a fuckton of prizes, like, just honestly.
Ysha: Sum up, sum all down, like, the value of these. Uh, that's, that's just, that's just, wow. Um, I'm, I'm always so grateful to see people that have got involved, that have heard about these and have sent us prizes, because genuinely, if nothing else, the possibility that with five quid, you get to do a personalized session with Kelly and Maddox.
Ysha: I guess it was, it was really right. It's very good value for money. Um, that's, that's what you do to join in. And, uh, again, immediately, if you follow Questions to Gaza, you see directly where your money goes.
Amy: And there is, of course, a prize for missing witches as well. I want to return to, Imogen, you said, to feel the difference between charity and mutual aid.
Amy: I think that that's huge. That that is a huge difference. Ideal idea, notion, that we need to bring into, especially us, again, finger scare quotes, us white savior types, us who have that, um, um, entitlement that everything that I see is for me, and everything that I do is for us. Also for me, for my ego, so that I can feel like a great, and hey, if you're making a donation to this fundraiser just to feel better about yourself, they're still gonna get the money, so like, that's fine too.
Imogen: We're very pro donations based on ego, that's totally fine, yeah. Whatever reason you feel like, it's fine, just get us the
Amy: money.
Imogen: Yeah, whatever, whatever warm fuzzy feeling that gives you, that's totally a okay. Okay. But I think that the, the difference between charity and mutual aid, I think for a lot of, well, certainly for my, like, felt experience of it is, is a very motivating thing to, to contribute to mutual aid, because it's that thing where you see that it's, you are not that different.
Imogen: From the person that is receiving the money at the end of this. And I think that, you know, chronically ill babes, all three of us are, you know, disabled life. There are so many different, uh, ways of seeing that we are so much closer to being the people that need that money than the people that hoard their resources.
Imogen: of various places around the world, like we are, you know, it's, we, we talk about it in the disability community. If you are not disabled, the only difference between you and me is luck and time, you know, that is the only thing that is different, you know, and best case scenario in life is that you become disabled because otherwise it's just, you know.
Imogen: Lights out, call it quits.
Amy: You haven't lived long enough to become disabled. Yeah,
Imogen: exactly. These are, these are the only things. And I think that, you know, it sounds really brutal. It sounds really bleak, but we are the same as the people who And it's, you know, people give shit to like, oh, don't give a fiver to that person on the street, they'll just spend it on drugs.
Imogen: And it's just like, what, Derek, like, you were going to this weekend, like, you to spend that five bucks on
Amy: drugs anyway. Like,
Imogen: what difference is there between us in terms of that role of the die? It's, and I think that that is a very motivating thing. thing of give that money because one day you might be the person who needs it and like kind of short by all means do it because it's the right thing to do and because it makes you feel good and warm and fuzzy and all of those things but also to acknowledge that we are all part of a system that is built on fucking us all over and that we are not so different from the people and you know with the way that politics is going in various parts of the world God forbid, God's forbid, forbid, goddesses forbid, whatever, it could happen to any one of us, and we need to be part of the systems that are in place to be able to support each other through worst case scenarios, because our worst case scenarios are happening every single day.
Imogen: The people that are not that different from us.
Amy: There's that, that saying that's like, um, Today you, tomorrow me.
Imogen: Exactly. Right?
Amy: Like you say, it really is just a luck of the draw. Um, I want to sort of semi conclude by asking you two both for some advice. I just started reading David Salubury's witchcraft activism.
Amy: Thank you, Deb. Deb is here in the, with the coven for the recommendation. Um, I just started it, but something that stuck out to me, he wrote, witchcraft is not a spectator sport. So I want to know from both of you, what advice do you have for people who are listening to this interview, who are sitting on the bench and thinking, how, how do I get in the game?
Amy: How do I get off the bench? Out of spectator mode and get into the game? Is it a question of bravery? Is it a question of drive? Is it a question of energy? Isha, you're shaking your head so you, you've got an answer for me. Um,
Ysha: it's a matter of having the spoons and wanting to do it. Um, one of the things that I think I found most enlightening, there's, uh, a few episodes of a podcast of, uh, rando Lodge, which is the writer of why I no longer talk to white people about race.
Ysha: And one of the things that, uh, uh, her and the people that got on the podcast kept highlighting was when you start to want to stand up and do stuff, you have this understanding and belief that you have to start something from scratch. No, follow you. You start off by following. And, uh, there's someone that is already in it that has already figured out all the technicalities, the needs.
Ysha: work that needs hands to make stuff happen that they couldn't make happen on their own, and they already all figured it out. Therefore, try not to think of doing it because you want glory or elitism or whatever like that. Yes, at the beginning there might not be your name, that's not the point. The point is the difference that it makes.
Ysha: And I'm sure that in time they will go, you know, do stuff and things will come. But yes, do, there are so many groups for so many The reason why I got in touch with Creatures to Gaza was literally because I was at a fundraiser and Amy spoke and after that I spent half an hour outside crying saying I don't do enough, I'll never do enough, I don't know what to do, I need to go home and sell every single item that I have to help these people.
Ysha: And then Raven, thankfully my spouse, calmed me down a bit and was like, Okay, what are the talents that we have? How do we put it to service? So, I sent a message on Instagram to Amy from Cujusugaza saying, Hey, I'm an disabled witch. I am on welfare. I want to have the money to donate to these people. It's not something that I can.
Ysha: What I know how to do is content. Do you need someone to get your information out? Because the speech that you did was amazing. It taught me so much. Can we get your speech out to other people? And that's why then we recorded the interview with Amy, which is now on the Glitter Cymru YouTube, and it's linked on the Witches for Palestine website.
Ysha: It's that kind of thing. You have a talent that can be put to use. Go to the people that are already organizing and see how that talent can be put to use. That's my best advice on that.
Amy: That's, that's one of the main things about collaboration, right, is that we all have different skill sets. You know, if you're putting on a show, you need a lighting technician, you need a performer, you need somebody who can do publicity, you need someone who can run a sound, like, you know.
Amy: All of these things combine to form one event in this metaphor, or one movement. Imogen, what's your advice for people who are kind of sitting on the bench waiting for the coach to call them in?
Imogen: Yeah, so like, I, mine kind of has two parts, and like, it would be like, first of all, like, it's always going to be like, you know, give yourself a little bit of grace.
Imogen: Don't, you know. As much as you might need to go sit outside an event and just cry because you'll never be as whatever, you know, but then you need the raven to come in and say, and now what do we do, we, and like, kind of, what do we, how do we make some sort of tangible benefit. I have a real bugbear about the term of like, witch, uh, armchair witches and stuff.
Imogen: And the idea that people, and I'm saying this as a disabled witch, some of us need to stay in an armchair. Not all of us can be up climbing on top of arms factories. And some of us are, you know, if we were to be in a situation where arrests were happening, there are some of us that could put our bodies on the line and there are others that would be at much more risk if we did that.
Imogen: There are so many different positions in witchcraft and activism and witchcraft as activism that are important and I think that they are all so important and like if you are not sure where to start and you are waiting for that coach to I don't do sports I'm sorry this metaphor could get a little bit wonky but to blow the whistle or something and say you're up No one's going to come and say, you're up, you've got to decide that.
Imogen: And if that decision is, today I'm not going to go to Starbucks, today I'm going to go to a local coffee shop, I'm going to go and, or you know, I'm going to take that 3 and you know, make my coffee at home and I'm going to put that 3 to a fundraiser, or you know, I'm going to Just instead of going into the hectic, busy Starbucks or whatever, I'm going to just sit in my car and I'm going to look out of the window at the birds or the trees, and I'm just going to let myself exist in this moment rather than contributing to systems that I know that are hurting other people.
Imogen: If I'm just going to simply opt out. you know, like there are moments of, you know, we talk a lot about how, what is it, violence in the face of oppression is choosing the side of the oppressor and all of that. But there are ways that even if you can't tangibly act in like kind of an active way, your passive actions, English, um, are still choices.
Imogen: And so, You can't do a thing, but you can not do a thing, you know, if you can choose to not buy a thing. Like, that is, that is contributing in a tangible way because you are not funding shitty systems. And that is, you know, people talk a lot about, well, I can't afford to do, I can't afford to buy, like, more expensive clothing instead of fast fashion or something.
Imogen: It's just like, okay, but could you afford to not buy a thing? That is, that is also a possibility. Um, and you know, I'm here, if, God forbid you go and look at my YouTube tarot channel, you will see that I have an abundance of tarot decks. I'm not here saying don't ever buy things, but if you're looking for small actions to make, then, yeah, someone's just said about divestment, like, you know, move your bank, don't make the purchases.
Imogen: your inaction can be as powerful as other people's direct actions.
Amy: Yeah, it's not, it's not necessarily about what you're doing, but also what you're not doing, what, what systems you're removing yourself from.
Imogen: And the choices, making those conscious decisions, rather than just doing things because of the way you've always done them.
Imogen: And I think that's the way that people told you to do them.
Amy: Risa and I always returned to, um, Doreen Valiente, who became kind of a famous witch, and she was invited to, you know, this, like, group meeting. And she showed up, and they were like, what do you want to do? And she was like, well, I could wash the dishes.
Amy: And they were like, we were thinking you might be a keynote speaker, but the humility that she approached the situation with was, I'm not going to bust here in here and tell you all what to do or how to do it. But I am offering to wash the dishes. Right? So there are small contributions that we can make these mundane things that become magical when we infuse them with our intentions.
Imogen: And the swaps, I think the swaps are so powerful of, you know, instead of going and being in that busy place of just going and sitting and like watching the birds or whatever and seeing what benefit that brings to your life instead of you going and doing that hectic thing and this, the swaps are important.
Imogen: You don't have to go without things necessarily, but you can, you can swap it out.
Amy: And you can skip your Starbucks today and use that money to make a contribution to the Witches for Palestine fundraiser. And again, probably a great return on investment because they're so a fuckton or a fuckload. What?
Amy: Which was it?
Imogen: A metric factor
Amy: of prizes to be won. Thank you so much, Isha. Thank you so much, Imogen. I feel like we really just, we've already gone way over what we said we were going to do, so I'll try to be respectful of your time, such as it is. So I would love to have you both back maybe in the new year.
Amy: I'm sure once this project is done, then. You'll be moving on to the next one. I can't imagine the energy that I'm getting off the two of you. This is not a one off. This is not, you're not going into retirement once this fundraiser ends. We
Ysha: thought, we thought that about, oh, we're doing phase one and it's done.
Ysha: And apparently Kutuz to Gaza started the same way. Oh, we're going to raise this money. We're going to go to Cairo. We're going to pat ourselves on the shoulder and say that we've done that.
Imogen: I would say it is your fault for ever referring to phase one because that does insinuate that there could be following phases.
Imogen: So you planned this, you evil
Ysha: genius. You might find that I think I started to say phase one in hindsight. But I'm not sure. Don't quote me on that. I'll take it back. I'll take it back. Don't quote me on that. I might have actually, you, you might, you might be very wrong, but you know, it was, it was the, we, we have attempted that, we have learned, we have moved on.
Ysha: Like the fact that now the money goes directly to people, like the day that you are donating, that money can be in Cairo to help someone pay the rent. Um, so that's, you know, we love this. And once you learn. It's what you need to
Amy: use. This, this notion too, of if you feel like your action today, how you, today is the day we change the world.
Amy: If you feel like that action is too small, then reframe it as phase one. I love that. And if someone comes to you like, It's
Imogen: phase one of changing the world.
Amy: What have you done? Well, you know, I, I made a contribution of five pounds. Well, that's not very much. Oh, but that's just phase one. I feel like we can really reframe our empowerment by thinking of every action as phase one, even.
Amy: Oh, there's so many Covenmates in the chat thanking you for the inspiration. Much to think about and to do, that's right. We have to think, but You know, we are witches. It's not a spectator sport, which we do witchcraft. We are, aren't, we are not witchcraft. We do witchcraft. It's, doing is a verb. And so again, Witches for Palestine, um, activist witch on YouTube.
Amy: Imogen, you mentioned you also have a YouTube channel. Is it Sapling Tarot?
Imogen: Yeah, yeah,
Amy: that's me. So, Activist Witch, Sapling Tarot, Witches for Palestine, please go to the show notes at missingwitches. com for this episode and we will have all the links that you need in order to start your phase one, whatever that may be.
Imogen: I'm so excited for that, yeah.
Amy: Thank you so much Isha, thank you so much Imogen, and
Imogen: Thank you so much for having us. Thank
Amy: you! And blessed fucking be!
