FIRST a note from Briana with an offer for Missing Witches!!
I am launching Make Good Trouble - The Course. It is entirely based on the first eight chapters of the book and I will be running it for eight weeks from 29 October - 17 December every Tuesday evening from 6-8 PM GMT or 1-3 PM EST. My intention is for this course to bring together like-minded people that consider themselves disruptors or seekers of disruption. It is for anyone that is new to the concept or is a veteran. I would love to offer your coven and community a 33% discount code, when they sign up to the course. If you're interested, please find the details here. This link breaks down each module - www.brianapegado.com/course. The discount code for your coven and community is MISSINGWITCHES33.
This week, we're joined by Briana Pegado, author of Make Good Trouble: A Practical Guide To The Energetics of Disruption, and contributor to The Modern Craft: Powerful Voices on Witchcraft Ethics. We talk about Samhain rituals, recovering from burnout, Theta Energy, moving toward an Age Of Sustainment, what it means to Make Good Trouble, and healing our own stuff before trying to heal the world.
In a continuing conversation around the Hermit, the Tarot card assigned to next year, 2025, Briana brings her own perspective.
“The Hermit is a symbol of a seeker or journeyer who has earned the secrets of truth-telling by protecting the truth itself, much like a disruptor who chooses to interpret the status quo in favour of justice, thereby disrupting abuses of power, toxic cycles, belief systems and harmful ways of being.”
Briana suggests that we all need to cultivate a relationship to chaos and shares a practice from Make Good Trouble, "Explore Your Disruptor Energy".
Listen now, transcript below
Briana Pegado is an Edinburgh-based, multi-award winning Values Compass™ facilitator, artist and coach. She is the author of Make Good Trouble: A Practical Guide to the Energetics of Disruption .
She has over a decade of experience as a high impact social entrepreneur, supporting thousands of creatives with nearly a decade of experience as a Founder and Creative Director.
As a ThetaHealing® practitioner, life coach, and disruption advisor she helps sow the seeds for disruptive transformation.
A Contributor to The Modern Craft: Powerful Voices on Witchcraft Ethics published by Watkins Publishing, in her chapter she lays out her path to deep transformation.
She is a certified ThetaHealing® practitioner, a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and an experienced company builder. Her background in Sustainable Development, allows her to bring a unique approach to values and purpose-driven coaching. She embeds anti-racist and intersectional practice into all of her work. When not in the healing space, you can find her working on her next novel or swimming in the wild ocean off the coast of Scotland.
She is a disruptor looking to create space for fellow disruptors who want to meet like-minded people.
Find Briana on Instagram and Twitter
Join Briana on Substack - If You're Looking For Trouble...
TRANSCRIPT
Amy: If you want to support the Missing Witches Project, join the coven. Find out how@missingwitches.com. Or buy our books, new Moon Magic and Missing Witches. And check out our deck of Oracles The Missing Witches Deck of Oracles.
Hello, Coven, and welcome to another episode of the Missing Witches Podcast. I'm Amy, and I'm so excited to make some good trouble today with our esteemed guest, Brianna Pagado. The author of Make Good Trouble also, uh, contributed a chapter to the wonderful book, The Modern Craft, Powerful Voices on Witchcraft Ethics.
Amy: You know that that's a subject that comes up for us a lot around here. It's like, what are the ethics of witchcraft? We're going to get into all of that and more. But first, Brianna, like, tell our listeners, who are you today? What do you want them to know about you before they enter into this headphone space with us?
Briana: Oh, gorgeous. What a great question. Thank you, Amy. Hello, everyone. And we were talking about this before we started today. Today is an eclipse. It's an eclipse In Libra, it's a solar eclipse, it's a, it's a new moon, I am a Libra rising, so I guess, like, there are many things I can say about myself, but let's just say that I'm definitely going through a process of shedding at the moment, and I'm feeling a lot of these energies, um, as you will find out, and as you know, uh, I've been writing since I was very little, and I contributed that chapter to the Modern Craft, and had the incredible experience of being commissioned by two people that I'm a massive fangirl of, Alice Tarbeck and Claire Askew, to contribute that chapter.
Briana: Um, but yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like this is quite, quite wild energy. I'm excited to be here. And I think what's going to come into this conversation today as well is my, my kind of work. and my practice working with artists, kind of my practice around activism and anti racism and justice work, and then also just all of the fun work around energy, energy healing, astrology.
Briana: So yeah, I think, I think that's, that's plenty.
Amy: I want to start with your introduction, because an introduction feels like a good place to start. But, um, the introduction to Make Good Trouble, it opens on Samhain, and since Samhain is nigh, and all of us are getting ready, or deeply ingrained in our witchy season, I want to know how you celebrate, what rituals you do at this time of year, like what does this time of year mean to you, and why was this?
Amy: It's so important for you to open your book at this time of year,
Briana: gorgeous question, I think, ever since I was little, and I was exploring my psychic senses, I was kind of exploring my connection to my ancestors. Samhain, kind of the witch's new year, was always that time of year where I felt the thinning of the veil, I felt fully in my power, I felt spooky, I felt excited, I felt energized.
Briana: And I think for me, celebrating Halloween, celebrating Samhain, however, you know, in whatever kind of iteration that would take, dressing up, going guising, Uh, watching films, cooking foods that I love are really important, but now that I'm older, I definitely celebrate when I'm Samhain. Either by going to the Fyre Festival here in Edinburgh, I just got an email inviting me to kind of book my ticket, which is on Colton Hill, this gorgeous space in the city centre, where you can go and see if, kind of, Fyre Festival happened, thanks to the Beltane Fyre Society.
Briana: But what I do, if I'm feeling like it's time to be cozy and alone in my own space, I put out pictures and images of my great grandmother, who was alive until I was 16. My grandmother, I set out their favorite food, I burn some candles and I do a little kind of ceremony and ritual around them, kind of to honor them.
Briana: Um, but I do make sure that there's some element of fire. Um, and I just kind of allow myself to Get quiet and kind of move into this darker energy Um, and i'm feeling it this week of like giving myself that permission. We talk about Rest we talk about capitalism. We talk about productivity. It's like trying to make space.
Briana: Um for that Slowing down and that rest and I don't know about you amy But you know this time of year also is like back to school energy. Everyone's just overdoing it You And I, like, no matter what I do, I've gotten better. I always have the ritual, which is kind of less my choice of getting sick, compared to this time of year.
Briana: So I try my best to not do that. And I'd say that that's kind of part of my ritual practice.
Amy: I was gonna save this question for later, but since you bring it up, um, your chapter in The Modern Craft, again, that's Powerful Voices on Witchcraft Ethics, listeners, just go ahead and pick it up, um, you talk about burnout, and you kinda touched on that just now, so I wanna know, like, I think most people that I know, if not all, like, who are the lucky ones who aren't, are experiencing, like, a very powerful burnout personally, politically, Globally, environmentally, it's all just feels like, so I want to know about like your story of burnout, like how you got there and how you came back from that to like, keep going.
Briana: Of course, I mean, it's funny because you know, we talk about these dark nights of the soul or these initiation periods. And I wouldn't say I had a single initiation period, but I had a really massive moment in 2017, which I touched on on that chapter in the model. Craft, uh, chapter, lucky chapter 13, best number about this experience of burnout.
Briana: And essentially what was happening is like many of us. And, you know, I'm not saying we're all millennials listening to this. We're all of different ages and stages and generations. At the time in 2017, I was running an arts festival that I'd set up and founded as a social enterprise. So the intention was to give people this space to kind of get work experience, develop their skills.
Briana: And showcase their work as artists from different disciplines and backgrounds. It took place in February and the time of year was quite significant. Um, all over the city of Edinburgh. And you might be able to hear from my accent. I grew up in Washington, D. C., but I live in Scotland. I've been here my entire adult life.
Briana: And this was kind of earlier on in my career, showing my age. But essentially what happened is, as a freelancer, as a self employed person, as someone running a small business or organization, I was constantly hustling. That festival wasn't kind of paying, allowing me to pay myself. I worked part time for the National Theatre of Scotland.
Briana: I was doing all this work. And I really, I had this moment of already feeling kind of the, the like indicators of burnout. And I think as well, growing up on the East Coast of the United States and growing up in Washington DC, which is a highly High achieving, very kind of productivity led and focused. And I'm talking about not in terms of like getting things done, in quotes, but about like altruism, service, you know, and it depends on kind of your perspective on Washington, D.
Briana: C. as a city, but a lot of people are doing work to help people and kind of serving people as a civil servant or whatever else. So there's this kind of weird, development of this guilt or the shame or this kind of feeling around my worth being tied to what I put out in the world. And we know a lot of that's tied up in capitalism.
Briana: But long story medium, I had this moment was the middle of February. It was like the week before my festival was supposed to start. And I was reading this story, it was a blog about invoking the goddess Kali. And I grew up with a best friend who's Hare Krishna, who's Indian. I used to go to temple with her on Saturday mornings.
Briana: I was really familiar with kind of Hindu gods and goddesses and kind of the Pantheon and Kali's a goddess that's always spoken to me. But basically the whole thing was we, you know, could invoke this This goddess and Kali or Durga, her other side, is this fierce mother, feminine energy, goddess, warrior, kind of, um, figure, energy that is supposed to cut the ties of all the things that are not serving you in your life.
Briana: And basically what happened is, I said this in vacation, I spoke to a guruji later who was like, never, never read an invocation off the internet, like, what are you doing, don't ever do that, do a, do a puja, do a prayer, be guided, what are you doing, anyway, I did it, and within a week, my relationship was over, I was not living in my flat with my partner anymore, the festival had lost its funding, my house was on the floor, and it was, Deep medical burnout, exhaustion, feeling deflated, feeling, um, demotivated, really feeling like what, what is there left and around that time, and the last thing I'll say about it just now is like around that time, a good friend of mine who is an artist who is really struggling with her fertility.
Briana: said, Hey, I've been working with this artist and theta energy healer and shaman. Why don't you speak to her? And that was really this kind of initiation process and introduction to, yes, I guess what you could call a dark night of the soul, but I would actually say this kind of liminal space, this transition into focusing a lot more on my kind of like healing practice, which you practice, uh, rituals and kind of being taken through the six months journey of.
Briana: Learning about beta energy healing, uh, doing some shamanic practitioner kind of work. I won't say it was full shamanic practice, I've not been initiated. And really having this moment of not only do things need to deeply change, but really starting to understand that this burnout is part of a much wider cycle and some of it's in my control and a lot of it is not.
Amy: So you had like, to use a metaphor from the Tarot, like a tower moment.
Briana: It was a huge tower moment. It was the biggest tower moment. It continues to be that moment in my life that I revisit as, yeah, that was a full on being kicked out, lightning bolts, and I, I was free falling.
Amy: And then you discovered this theta energy.
Amy: Now, your work is the first time I encountered this term, I'll be honest, so everything I know about it is from you. Um, I don't want to presume what our listeners know, but in case they're like me and they're like, theta energy, huh, what's this? Can you give us a little, you know, description of what that means?
Briana: Of course. So like you, my first time kind of encountering it. Countering Theta, energy healing was, was recent, was in this year. So I knew about Reiki and there are a lot of Reiki practitioners. People say that Reiki practitioners, and you can correct me, anyone out there listening, kind of channel the beta brainwave and kind of channel Qi through the body and through obviously the kind of energy field through the universe.
Briana: Theta is literally Theta brainwaves. So, you know, we have scientists that are studying monks, meditating, kind of looking at their kind of brain particles and kind of movements and kind of what kind of energy they're generating. So theta is literally channeling the theta brainwave and essentially it's a form of energy healing.
Briana: It's a modality. It was brought to this earth by Vianna Stiebel, who's based in the States, and she kind of brought theta energy teachings to the world, but essentially it's a form of. Energy healing, it's a form of talk therapy, um, it combines talk therapy, though we're not therapists in that sense, we're not psychiatrists or psychologists, but what it does is, it allows the kind of healer to work with the person receiving that energy from the universe from source to actually kind of start to resolve, we call it resolving maybe rather than healing.
Briana: These deep felt beliefs. that might be contributing to dis ease, to discomfort, to kind of ill health, whatever it is. And the essential notion behind this is that energy is healing that kind of belief system, that kind of illness, that ailment on three levels. On your kind of soul level, On your kind of, like, you know, your human level, that body level, and then kind of ancestral, and those three tiers kind of have different names, but we're going to go with it.
Briana: So that is what Theta Energy Healing is. It's another energy healing modality. You can do it from a distance, um, and it just allows people to kind of dig, we call it digging, dig into what are these core beliefs that might be leading to disease. And the thing I should really say is it's called DNA Theta Healing, Energy Healing, because as we know, Trauma, um, and sexual trauma, things passed down to us deeply impact our gene expression and our DNA.
Briana: So this is very much about getting to the root and to the core of it. Even though we know healing isn't linear, we know it's not a one and done. It's a process, but it allows us to kind of explore what might be some deep seeded beliefs I have in belief systems. I wasn't conscious of that might be contributing to some of these feelings, not to put blame on anyone.
Briana: Um, it's not about that, it's about what might be contributing to what you're experiencing in this life, and how might you heal it for all past generations and all future generations.
Amy: So for you personally and specifically, how did it, how did Theta Energy, practice or healing help you get through your tower moment?
Amy: And what, like, what did it feel like?
Briana: Yeah, it's such a beautiful question. I had this really gorgeous moment. So Eileen was the kind of artist and practitioner I was working with. She is Scottish and Ecuadorian. She's kind of based, uh, in Zimbabwe on the east coast of Scotland near Edinburgh. And I remember going to her house, and this is when she lived in Edinburgh.
Briana: And we kind of had some of our first sessions, made our first virtual session. Um, and one of the first virtual sessions was helping me kind of meet my higher self. So I have this whole kind of visualization, closed our eyes, kind of thought about a place I might like to go where I felt calm and kind of explored different seasons.
Briana: I ended up in winter and I have this deeply profound moment of meeting my higher self. And yes, it's not that I've never tried to kind of talk to speak to access my higher self before, but I got this visualization of this pink fiery. uh energetic being and that kind of healing, you know, when you kind of It's all based on consent, right?
Briana: So if you're working with a theta energy healing healing practitioner or a healer Um, they'll say, you know, would you like healing? Would you like healing on this from source? And so you give your consent if you choose to Um, and it kind of heals that kind of instantly and spontaneously and of course we might not feel it immediately.
Briana: It might depend on our relationship to our bodies to our relationship to kind of energy work, but I remember very specifically kind of having that first session with Eileen and I went to the National Theatre of Scotland the next day and my boss said to me. You look great. And I was like, Oh, she was like, you just seem very light and airy and carefree.
Briana: And then, you know, I wasn't in a place with her where I could say, yes, I had a theta energy healing session last night. I mean, this was still, still recent. It was 2017. But I did. I felt burdens lifted. I felt really relaxed. But that was because of, um, that session and what we decided to focus on. And if I remember correctly, that was around guilt.
Briana: It was around shame. And so that felt quite, quite immediate. But people talk about this experience of feeling things at different points, different levels or not at all. So, but it definitely feels like this instantaneous kind of healing. If you're open to it, and if you kind of get to that level of of a belief system, it might be that as you're digging into kind of these things that you're experiencing, it might be the 1st layer or the 2nd layer.
Briana: So it kind of. It kind of allows you to explore that.
Amy: So many people, I think, feel this, like, guilt and shame that they can't save the world or they're not doing enough to save the world, um, save the people in their lives. One of your core messages in your writing is you have to heal your own stuff.
Amy: before attempting to heal others. And I think that's so important and something that gets bypassed a lot. Um, I know for me, like one of my major struggles is anxiety. And I always felt like, well, if I can just fix everything that's making me scared, then I won't have this anxiety anymore. And of course it doesn't work.
Amy: You can't, you know, Snap your fingers and have violence and greed, like, cease to exist, so why was it so important to you to sort of repeat that message of healing our own stuff before we attempt to heal the world or heal the people we know?
Briana: Yeah, so a big part of why that message was so core to the book and to the chapter in the Modern Craft is something my Theta Healing teacher taught me, Jennifer Main, another American.
Briana: And um, I can't take credit for that phrase, so that was totally her phrase, heal your own stuff. But it is this whole thing of, you know, we're in this kind of health and wellness thing. We're in this space. We're in this energetic space. We're in this witchy space. We're seeing this kind of, it's not even a renaissance, but obviously kind of reclaiming our power around all of these things, or we might be part of traditions, indigenous traditions, um, and kind of geographic traditions where it's always been present, but all over the world, we're kind of seeing this real need for a return to revisiting of, or kind of bringing into focus All of this kind of healing work and healing energy.
Briana: And I think that quite easily, just like anything else, We're in the wild, wild west. You know, we're, we're, we're cute, silly little humans. We make mistakes and we're in this place where I think hopefully we're moving away from guru obsession and kind of guru syndrome of kind of looking out externally, looking to others to be our teachers.
Briana: Of course, there's value in having a guide and having a teacher and having a coven and having many people around us, but that self knowledge is so important. And I can't sit here and say, I'm perfect at it. I'm a recovering. Perfectionist, I'm a recovering overachiever, all of that guilt and shame constantly processing and working through.
Briana: But I think as well, it's kind of like, where might we be stepping out of ourselves to not even give advice, but to heal others, to offer support, to offer guidance? Often we can be in a space, I'm not saying always, but often we can be in a space of projection. We are projecting so much onto other people, and when I say projection, I know that we know what this means, but yes, like, we are seeing our problems externalized.
Briana: We are kind of interpreting things that other people are experiencing as things that are actually our own stuff. This comes back to this whole notion of stuff, where if we spend some time processing it, sitting with it, healing it, being aware of it. working through it, knowing that it, uh, contrary to what I said about theta energy healing, knowing that it's not an instantaneous fix, knowing that it's not like an overnight thing, knowing that this is a kind of lifelong process, but allowing ourselves to kind of go, okay, like I need to take responsibility.
Briana: This is about responsibility. This is about accountability. This is about how do I take responsibility for my own stuff, my own, um, trauma with my own lived experiences. It can be beautiful stuff too. It's not all about negativity, but how do I take responsibility for this? Be aware of it and make sure that when I'm healing, supporting, guiding others, giving advice, of course, with consent and permission, that I'm not projecting my own experiences onto other people.
Briana: That said, and it comes back to this astrological kind of concept of Chiron. This kind of asteroid, the wounded healer, this kind of myth and this story of this healer that can heal others and can never heal themselves. They have this wound that is unhealable. Um, it's a bit like their Achilles heel. It's constantly kind of open.
Briana: And I think something that's really important to say and distinguish is that actually having a lived experience of certain things, going through our own experiences of ill health or mental ill health or whatever else, also enables us obviously to have empathy and insight to heal and support others. So I'm not saying, uh, don't do any healing work.
Briana: It's just that, you know, have that self awareness, have that, practice have those tools to process alongside. And again, not saying you need to be perfect. You need to be this guru. You need to know all, but how do we do this in a more kind of ethical, consensual, responsible, and also accountable way.
Amy: You, um, mentioned Tony Frye.
Amy: Um, we are moving into an age of sustainment, and just reading those words felt like a healing energy for me, you know? I want to know, like, what, in your mind, what would an age of sustainment look like, and how do we get there?
Briana: Great question. If only I knew the answer, but I'll definitely reflect on that. I think that, You know, we talk, we talk about this a lot in activist spaces, anyone that does work with, you know, children and young people, anyone that does work with change, you know, we look at throughout history, these social movements, these activist movements, these political movements, and, you know, like now, things can feel really out of balance.
Briana: It's like the pendulum swinging in all sorts of wide directions. And I think that with over time and with kind of grace and with, with patience and action, we see that this pendulum like starts to not swing so wildly. It comes back to balance. It comes back to center. I'm not saying without. action and without, um, activity.
Briana: Like it requires us to do something to make that pendulum kind of come back to center. But I do think this age of sustainment is this place that we're kind of free, we're liberated from constraints that are oppressive. I mean, I know that's like quite a like textbook thing for me to go to talking about, um, social movements and social change, but also it's this place that we, where we give ourselves permission to be And I know that sometimes when we think about energy, we think about, um, taking action, we think about change, it's these really kind of masculine energies at times of like, activation and movement.
Briana: And when I'm saying masculine and feminine energies, I'm obviously not talking about gender, I'm talking about these kind of different kind of energetic, principles that we can play with. Um, but yeah, it's this whole thing of how can we not be binary? How can we not be linear? How can we be more expansive and think about the grade in between the transitional?
Briana: And also the age of sustainment, I think, is this age where we allow all aspects of the human experience to be and exist. In my book, I talk about, you know, emotions that we might consider negative emotions, anger. Hatred, guilt, shame, all of those things are so important, but how do we kind of live in a way that we don't constrain ourselves?
Briana: We live with joy, with respect, with love, with care, with beauty at the center of things, and happiness. Well, happiness, this sounds really like, okay, we're just going to live in this perfect world, but no, with joy, with empathy, but also, how do we live in a way where we're not abusing our power? exploiting others, the planet, resources, each other.
Briana: Um, how are we not overdoing? And again, this can be quite hard for people who think, well, I should have the freedom to choose to do whatever I like. Sure. But also like, how do we do that in a way that isn't taking too much, that isn't about control, that isn't about subjugation. And I think this age of sustainment is really living in this kind of symbiotic relationship to each other, to the earth, the planet.
Briana: And how do we get there? Well, I think the short answer is we have to dismantle systems of power that are abusive, that are oppressive, that are exploitative. When we look at the history of our world, human history, I can't say the whole planet, obviously I'm not speaking about the dinosaurs, but if we look at the history of human history and we look at all of these different moments and points in history where there's been greed, there's been control, there's been exploitation, It's like, could we, could we chill a little bit?
Briana: Why do we need this? We have, and I don't think it's, I don't think it's a human instinct, actually. I don't think that we're predisposed to behave this way. But this whole idea of scarcity, uh, and this need to kind of control resources and not having enough, the age of sustainment would be the opposite of that.
Briana: You know, thinking about abundance, thinking about, The fact that things are infinite energy is infinite. It's not finite. And I know that if you're, you know, an engineer or a psychologist, potentially, or a scientist, you might be thinking, no, no, no, some things are finite. Sure. But I think actually, we put value on things being finite and scarce, but in reality, aren't really, we've just created rules to make them that way.
Briana: And actually, a kind of age of sustainment would allow us to move away from that.
Amy: And lifting this binary sort of brings us to good trouble. You know, we think of trouble as bad, but you are, have written, your book is called Make Good Trouble. So tell me what that means to you. What does it mean to make good trouble?
Briana: Again, I stand on the shoulders of giants. So that phrase, It comes from Senator John Lewis, who's monumental and kind of really central to the civil rights movement in the U. S. But also, it kind of comes from this notion of, I've always been very disruptive, I've always been a troublemaker, meaning to, and also without meaning to.
Briana: I've always had a really kind of set of clear values or beliefs, and I don't know if it's beliefs, but values and kind of guiding principles in life, and I think many of us do, you know, sometimes we talk about children or young people or people kind of Trying to figure out what's important to them in life, but I do think a lot of us have a really clear Vision and understanding of that and making good trouble is all about How disruption is good how we need to cultivate a relationship to chaos how we need to cultivate Um a deep relationship to discomfort the uncertainty life Is uncertain changes constant.
Briana: How can we actually be playful with that and embrace it? And I think sometimes people hear the word trouble or disruption, and they think it's something external or big or out of control and unwieldy. But I think this book and kind of Everything that I've been exploring is about how can disruption be gentle and quiet and soft and a choice and something that we kind of embed and integrate into our lives as a kind of daily thing, not something that has to be this huge monumental explosive moment.
Briana: Um, and also if we're making good trouble, hopefully we don't have to build up to these big explosive moments, but actually we can kind of course correct and kind of shift away from things and, and kind of sit in our intuition. Know ourselves a bit better and where we can make choices that we can live in more alignment with our values with the things that are important to us in order actually to experience more ease, less resistance, more alignment with the life that we want to live and lead.
Briana: And obviously there are things that are going to be impacting this, you know, our, um, our background, kind of our lived experience. experiences, the family we were born into, the place we were born to. There's so many things that impact this, but actually where can we build a more sustainable space for ourselves?
Amy: Obviously, you know, the book, it tackles, like, social justice and, you know, personal growth, but it's also hella witchy. Listeners, hella witchy. Like, it's all full of astrology and tarot. I want to know, like, what drew you to, for lack of a better term, the witchy world?
Briana: It's a great question, and I think that the witchy arts chose me. It's always been kind of a deep part of my life, and I remember, and I kind of mentioned this in The Modern Craft, I remember getting my first tarot deck. I went with my friend Leslie when I was, I think, 11 or 12. We went to Barnes Noble, and I got myself my first thought tarot deck.
Briana: And up until that point, you know, I'd had so many moments of, you know, Psychic and intuitive hits my grandmother was incredibly psychic Um, but the thing is in my family, it wasn't something that was necessarily discussed. So like if you wanted to If I give you an example, my great grandmother who was alive until I was 16 was definitely a kitchen witch.
Briana: Like, she had a farm, she grew things, she made potions and poultices. It was just kind of her way. And it wasn't something that was kind of ever explicitly discussed, it was just sort of done. If you, if you had an ailment, my grandmother too, like, have you tried eating peppermint? Have you tried putting this on it?
Briana: Have you had some lemon, lemon tea, lemon bong tea? And, you know, I, I would kind of pick up on these things and sort of ask questions, like, how did you know that? My grandma, she'd think of someone they've called, like that would happen constantly. And it's funny because I think my family, and you know, religion's a big, big point of tension, or can be sometimes, or it can be.
Briana: Really symbiotic, but I think, you know, my family was quite Christian on that side and it wasn't anything around. Oh, this stuff is is not good or of the devil. No, never. But I think because they were very, they were Christian at times. Maybe the kind of witchy side of things just were they just existed.
Briana: They didn't think about it too much. Um, but I did. I was obsessed. I was always kind of reading, you know, horoscopes. I was always thinking about the tarot, and it was always a big part of my life. But this moment in 2017 with Kali and his invocation was a real initiation point where I was like, well, yeah, like, This I'm gonna bring my crystals to work.
Briana: I'm going to do a reading in the middle of a meeting I'm gonna tell my friend if they're having a bad day. What's happening? Astrologically like this it wasn't fully conscious It was just kind of like a perspective shift where it was like, you know What this is a core part of my life and and something I should say as well is After that whole moment in that February of 2017, I went to Bali for a month, which just sounds so corny
Briana: What happened because I had this really serendipitous moment I, at the time, I was kind of between Edinburgh and, um, the U. S. as I would go home at Christmas, and I was flying back to Edinburgh, it must have been Christmas 2016, or winter, winter break 2016, that period, and my flight was delayed, and Virgin Atlantic was sort of like, Don't worry for all of you that have been kind and gentle and polite You'll get a refund and I was like never gonna happen and they granted us a couple months later a full Round trip ticket to anywhere.
Briana: We wanted to fly in the worlds from london that virgin atlantic flew So I had my full trip All the way there paid for and that's why this kind of ridiculous situation or not ridiculous very serendipitous Uh very aligned kind of situation that happened, but I didn't have to pay for my flight And I kind of went for the month But I think as well that was really a kind of journey of trying to get some answers or trying to kind of find some Kind of, um, yeah, like healing modalities or approaches and to kind of respect and learn and kind of be in a culture that is very hard to do for a month.
Briana: Um, but what I'm getting at is, is I've had these kinds of key moments in my life where kind of the kind of witchy arts and kind of healing arts and kind of, um, psychic intuitiveness, mediumship, um, that's always been there. I've always kind of been able to feel things, smell things. um, hear things, and I've just thankfully leaned into it.
Briana: I never had anyone say, what are you doing? Um, but I did keep it to myself and to the people around me, um, until kind of more recently until the last kind of five to 10 years, where it just seems like it's more out in the world and in the ether and in a way that it maybe wasn't before.
Amy: I've been asking this of a lot of our guests this season, um, because 2025, um, if you subscribe to this notion that each year has a tarot card, um, that it belongs to it or that it belongs to, and next year is the Hermit.
Amy: And I was reading, um, your assessment of the Hermit. I'm going to read it right now. Um, the hermit is a symbol of a seeker or journeyer who has earned the secrets of truth telling by protecting the truth itself, much like a disrupter who chooses to interpret the status quo in favor of justice, thereby disrupting abuses of power, toxic cycles, belief systems, and harmful ways of being.
Amy: Being, and there's something in another section that you wrote that I, I feel is really tied to this. You wrote about your willingness or inability to ignore wrongdoing, harm, or injustice became a beacon for other people. And as I read that, I was imagining this, you know, the lantern of the, of the hermit and that sort of your in inability to ignore wrongdoing.
Amy: Becoming a beacon for other people, is that how you possibly maybe can see 2025 belonging to the Hermit?
Briana: I think that's so beautifully said, and I hope so, and I think there's something really beautiful about The Hermit, and you were saying this earlier, Amy, I should mention, the whole book has the tarot deeply embedded in it, because each chapter, as you've kind of just read out on The Hermit, Has a tarot card associated with it and at the very start of the book.
Briana: I asked the reader to Be open to the energy of the fool this character that you know the in the major arcana It's kind of the first card if you read the tarot like that And it's this character that it's kind of stepping off this cliff with one foot in the air into the unknown You don't know if they're gonna fall off the cliff or if a magical staircase is gonna emerge you But it's kind of this, this kind of invitation to be a fool to life.
Briana: And then the kind of terror takes you through these different kind of stages and characters and the hermit is one of them. So yes, thinking about 2025, um, I'm really hoping because this whole journey is not easy being a truth teller, being a disruptor is not easy. It's not always a choice. It's just the way you are.
Briana: It's just the way you see the world and you engage with it. But, you know, being, being courageous and having that audacity, and I know that can be overused, but having the audacity To speak the truth to stand up to power. And again, this doesn't have to be in a really public visible way. This could be standing up to a family member, a friend, a partner, a group of friends.
Briana: This could be at work. This could be in your community. And just going, you know what? I don't agree with that. Or, you know, How, you know, really, really honoring and really also witnessing where abuses of power take place. They are constant, they are micro, they are everywhere. And I think when we think about 2025 and the year of the hermit, I think sometimes we can, not everyone, but associate the hermit with withdrawing, with being disengaged, with being deep, far away, kind of unreachable.
Briana: We're actually, we're moving into the season anyway, with Samhain on the horizon. This is a deeply fertile place to be. The Hermit is a deeply fertile card. It's about. How do we alchemize? How do we process? How do we repurpose things that are hard to digest? And I think when it comes to the hermit, it comes to this truth teller, it comes to this observer, taking that step back to be able to observe and to alchemize and to digest and to like, process and sleep and rest and come back through the other side.
Briana: What can be a really, really harrowing and difficult journey is the stuff of, of change. It's the stuff of what beauty emerges from. It doesn't have to be beautiful. It can be ugly, but it's, it's the stuff of creation. What, what can emerge? And I'm really hoping that as our world, as our planet, as, um, Our humanity is kind of going through a deeply, deeply complicated time, complex time, a deeply tricky time.
Briana: It's like making good trouble and being a hermit is like sticking with the trouble. It's not fun. But, with that said, You know, how can you not make it fun? It's not about making and turning that frown upside down. No, but how can you actually stick with that discomfort? And allow the kind of energy of the hermit to guide you to go.
Briana: Yeah, I might be laying low right now. I might be under the soil right now. But I will be emerging again and I'm hoping that 2025 it might be a full year of the hermit of kind of being under the surface, being under the radar, digesting and processing. But the beauty and the possibility, not just beauty, the possibility of what can emerge on the other side is huge.
Amy: I have to change lanes for a second because this is one of my favorite subjects in the whole universe. Um, how do you see the intersection or relationship between witchcraft and art?
Briana: I mean, it's huge and we would need hours to kind of explore this, but on a really basic level, I see witchcraft as world building.
Briana: And I also see arts and creativity as deeply world building this process of, excuse me, this process of bringing things into being of helping us see a vision for a different world, which is, you know, And kind of practitioners of all sorts of kind of witchy arts are spell crafting are, um, manifesting are kind of literally alchemizing element, and we are kind of creating them repurposing them making them into something else.
Briana: And that's why I've had such a privilege of spending my. adult kind of working life in the arts and creative industries amongst other artists of people that sometimes are accepted, sometimes are on the fringes of society, but yes, are taking these kind of raw elements and materials and turning them into something else.
Briana: Uh, people that are, are really comfortable to like not follow rules and to sit with discomfort and to be on the edges of things and allow things to emerge, allow that process. To kind of bring something into being, and I think that they are one in the same, maybe not everyone considers their, their kind of practice is an artistic thing, but I think that kind of process, it's not, I don't, I don't want to overemphasize creation, but this process of bringing something into being, of making something, of repurposing something is deeply creative, it's deeply artistic, literally creative energy, so they are one in the same, they have their own distinct expressions, their differences, there is.
Briana: But those kind of processes are, are kind of, um, tied to one another in a lot of ways.
Amy: Um, I, my spouse is Scottish. He was born in Glasgow. And last year, I had the opportunity to go for the first time. And I went to Aran Island. Have you been to Aran Island with the Standing Stones?
Briana: Gorgeous. And yes,
Amy: and for me, um, I, you know, I, I chose a stone circle.
Amy: I sat, I meditated, I asked my ancestors, you know, Scotland is like an ancestral land for me too. You know, why did you do this? What, what is this? Where am I? Like, what? And I mean, I don't know if it was my imagination or a download from Ancestor or what it was, but the message that came through for me was people have always fucked around and made shit.
Amy: And it sounds so like basic and silly and maybe even dumb, but that was so profound for me that people have always just, you know, done things that didn't make sense to other people. People, you know, whether, and I don't know if, if they made it for religious reasons, if they made it for, you know, astronomical, astrological reasons, if they made it because one of them was like, Hey, mate, like, let's stick some stones in the ground and see what happens.
Amy: But just this, like, it was so validating for me to just get that message of, like, just make shit. Just do shit. Like, 6, 000 years those standing stones have been there. 6, 000 years. And potentially just because somebody had an idea and was like, mate, come help me out with this.
Briana: I mean, I love that. And I think it's gorgeous.
Briana: And it comes back to this thing of, right, Yeah, we can just make things. It could have been all of the above the reasons for those standing stones and does there need to be a purpose? Like, does there need to be a purpose? And I think my experience and Aaron's really quickly, I was there in 2021 and I used to work with an organization that's in the kind of gender based violence sector.
Briana: And we basically designed a retreat for frontline workers to have a break. Young women in particular, excuse me, young women in particular in positions of power that had no support and were supporting people all the time, just needed a break. And we actually had A shamanic drummer and a witch, Belinda, um, shamanic drummer Fion, and they ran something called Wild Power Alchemy, and they, they ran a retreat for us, and they took us to the Standing Stones.
Briana: She did some shamanic drumming, and I mean, I went to talk about theta brainwaves and delta brainwaves. I just went into this deep meditative state, and I kind of had a bit of an out of body experience. I was like, where am I? What is time? Where, where in the time space continuum? I don't know. But yeah, the Aaron standing stones are so special.
Briana: All of them are, but there's something so, See, losing my voice talking about it. There's something so special About Aaron and those stones and I I love that that download or that message that came through which was like Yeah, we would just we're just making shit people have always just made shit And it's as simple
Amy: as that.
Amy: It's certainly one of the most magical feeling places that I've ever had the, the wonderful opportunity to visit. I'm hoping that you will play us out with something from Make Good Trouble. At the end of chapter one, you have a practice to explore your disruptor. energy. And I'm hoping that you can share that with our listeners to sort of leave us all with something we can take with us as we, you know, take the headphones off when we finish, when we finish today.
Briana: My pleasure. So I'm reading from, thank you, Amy. I'm reading from chapter one, as Amy said, um, the energetics of disruption, and this is called a practice to explore your disruptor energy. Are you a disruptor? Do you have the audacity to interpret those who use their position, power, privilege, and relationships to others to manipulate, coerce, abuse, and push people to perform for their own ends?
Briana: Are you ready to identify with this and admit that we live within wider systems that encourage this behavior? Being disruptor requires you to sit with discomfort. And discomfort is just that. It is uncomfortable. We are going to practice saying, staying with the trouble and sitting with discomfort. Also saying, saying discomfort.
Briana: This is a tool that will serve you well as you embark on your disruptor journey. One, take a moment to find a quiet space. Or if that is not possible in this moment, close your eyes and begin to tune out the world. Let's begin with a body scan. Start at the top of your head and imagine a gentle, pulsating white light enveloping your head.
Briana: As you imagine this white light, allow it to travel from the top of your head, across your forehead, over your ears, nose, mouth, and the rest of your face. Take a deep breath
Briana: as you imagine the white light moving to different parts of your body. Allow it to move at whatever pace you like. Let the white light cover every part of your body until you reach your toes. Now bring this white light to rest gently in your mind, from where its glow surrounds you like a protective energy.
Briana: You have just completed a body scan. 5. Next, think of a situation in the past or present that makes you feel uncomfortable. It could be a specific situation involving a family member, friend, or partner. It could be a situation you do not agree with at work, or a decision made in a social setting. It could be an upcoming decision you need to make for yourself, which might impact other people in ways that make them uncomfortable.
Briana: 6. Imagine the situation or decision and allow yourself to feel into the discomfort of it. You might experience emotions such as anxiety, embarrassment, tension, or hopeful feelings such as excitement, pride, and ease. Allow yourself to feel into these emotions. Now focus on one of these feelings. While you focus on this feeling, take a deep breath and allow yourself to notice where the feeling comes up in your body.
Briana: Try to pay close attention to where you feel a tensing up, a twitch or pressure on a certain part of your body. You may notice a shift in different parts of your body. Next, imagine the white light moving to that part of your body. As it moves to that part of your body, take a deep breath and repeat the following mantra.
Briana: Breathing in, I focus my attention, and breathing out, I release any tension. For each emotion that comes up in relation to the decision or situation, repeat this mantra every time you focus on the body part that connects to it. Again, breathing in, I focus my attention, and breathing out, I release any tension.
Briana: When you feel ready to finish, allow yourself to take one last deep breath, and scan your body gently again with the white light. When you think about the situation or decision now, how do you feel? Do you feel any less tension and any more ease around it? The purpose of this exercise is to help regulate your nervous system and bring some ease to your body.
Briana: It will also help to ready your body for more discomfort and to have the capacity to process this when it arises in the future. Practice these steps as often as you like for the full effect. While you may not necessarily find clarity on what to do if you feel indecisive, Or if you believe you should have behaved differently in the past, you should feel less physically triggered by any emotions that a challenging situation or a difficult decision brings up.
Amy: Thank you so much. Listeners, the book is Make Good Trouble by Brianna Pagado. Also, check out the Modern Craft powerful voices on witchcraft ethics. A great way to support Brianna is obviously to buy those books, specifically Make Good Trouble, because, you know, as the only author, you're the one getting the royalties, but how else can our listeners support you?
Amy: Where can they find you? All that.
Briana: So I've got a newsletter that you can subscribe to on Substack. It's called If You're Looking for Trouble. You can also find me at BriannaPagotto. com. I do healing sessions and coaching sessions. You can find me on Instagram at Brianna Pagotto and Twitter at Brianna Pagotto.
Briana: So any of those places, give me a follow, send me a message. I'd love to hear from you.
Amy: Which is, I do recommend if you are looking for some guidance, um, in turning your words, your ideas into action, um, disrupting in a way that's healthy and sustainable for you, please check out Make good trouble. Thank you so much Brianna.
Amy: It has been a joy to be with you in circle today. I just love your face, I love your smile. I love your ideas, . I love your energy and um, I guess blessed fucking B.
Briana: Yes, blessed Bee. Oh, thank you so much Amy, and it's been such a pleasure to be on Missing Witches. So thank you for having me.
Amy: Thank you.
Amy: If you want to support the Missing Witches Project, join the coven. Find out how at missingwitches.com. Or buy our books, new Moon Magic and Missing Witches. And check out our deck of Oracles the Missing Witches Deck of Oracles.
