The Missing Witches podcast is back from our much needed hiatus to celebrate the Fall Equinox - a time when light and dark are in balance. Our guests Maria Minnis author of Tarot for the Hard Work, and Lane Smith author of 78 Acts of Liberation help us, like the light of the sun and the darkness of night, to find a balance between our internal and external worlds, using Tarot as a tool for political and personal liberation.
The personal is political AND the political is personal.
Together we complicate the cards and expand on the meaning of Tarot; we discuss Freeing Minds, Freeing Bodies, community, activism, possibility, spellWORK, the anxiety of 'getting it right' and the sacred responsibility of being part of an interconnected web.
As we fall toward 2025, we also take some time to discuss next year's Tarot card: The Hermit!
Listen now (transcript below):
Lane Smith is a transmasculine nonbinary writer with over 20 years of experience as an activist, organizer, and Tarot reader. They have been involved in struggles against war, the death penalty, attacks on LGBT rights and body autonomy for marginalized genders and birthing people, police violence, and apartheid. They have worked as a social worker in prisons, and in the field of harm reduction with people who are at risk for HIV/AIDS. With a professional Master’s degree in Social Work and an academic Master’s degree in Humanities and Social Thought, Lane expresses their ideas in clear, nonacademic language in the interest of putting social justice values into practice. Lane is the editor of the Tarot & Politics zine (IT'S COMING BACK), and a member of Solidarity Tarot where they live in Baltimore City, Maryland.
FIND LANE ON THEIR WEBSITE AND FOLLOW LEFTLANESMITH ON INSTAGRAM
BUY 78 ACTS OF LIBERATION - and PLEASE leave a review on GoodReads and/or Amazon
Maria Minnis is a Black, Jewish, queer, and autistic tarot reader of 20+ years who teaches about blending spirituality with everyday magic, liberation work, and sensuality. She believes that the end result of all magic should be to cultivate a more equitable and empathetic planet.
Subscribe to HOLOGRAPHIC SPACE INDEX! AND check out Maria's brand new community program LUNAR LIBERATION SOCIETY!!
FIND MARIA ON HER WEBSITE AND FOLLOW FEMINNIS ON INSTAGRAM
BUY TAROT FOR THE HARD WORK
TRANSCRIPT:
Amy: Hi, Coven. The Missing Witches podcast is back from our much needed hiatus to celebrate the fall equinox, a time when light and dark are in balance. And I'm hoping that today's guests can help us too, like the light of the sun and the darkness of night. Find a balance between our internal and external worlds, using tarot as a tool for political and personal liberation.
Amy: I'm joined today by Maria Minnis, author of Tarot for the Hard Work, and Lane Smith, author of Seventy Eight Hours. Acts of Liberation. If you didn't get that reference, there are 78 cards in a tarot deck, so that's what we're talking about. We won't get to all 78, but I have a couple in mind that I definitely want to talk about.
Amy: Hi Maria! Hi Lane!
Maria: Hi! Hi!
Lane: I am hype for fall. I am a bit like, I'm a Libra moon, Scorpio, Venus. It's the most romantic time of the year. I love all the smells, all the flavors, all the colors. I love the cold, crisp air. I love to be cozy. I am a, my fifth house is Taurus.
Lane: Cozy is like the prime, uh, pleasure word for me. And I am so ready for autumn equinox. Everything. Let's tip into
Amy: fall. Maria, how do you feel about the oncoming second half of the year?
Maria: Listen, so I get really excited at the summer solstice because immediately the days start getting shorter. Like, that's what's like the main attraction to me for that day.
Maria: So I'm super excited. I live in LA, so I don't get to see the seasons as As visibly, uh, transform, transforming as I would, um, back East, but, um, I'm definitely making a lot of effort, especially this year to sort of infuse more ways of living seasonally. So I actually feel like it's fall. Um, and yeah, favorite season coziness is my game.
Maria: Uh, my ascendant is in Taurus. So not only do I know this, but. Anyone else who knows me knows that I just like to be comfortable, um, so, and fall is a really comfortable time, so I'm excited, sounds like Lane is excited, and you're excited too, so I don't know, I'm really jazzed.
Amy: Yeah, Maria, you wrote the foreword for Lane's book, but you were both telling me this is the first time you've sort of met face to face.
Amy: Yeah, in real time, so happy to have facilitated. Yeah. It's really exciting.
Maria: It really is. I'm like, beaming and fangirling.
Lane: Same, same, same. It's so beautiful to see your face and just, yeah, it's so, yeah, just, yeah, to be like, in real time with you and to see you is so awesome. I love you so much.
Maria: I love you so much, like, all the way, and I can't say it enough.
Maria: I really love you, and I love that we get to talk here today, and that we already know each other, and so I'm really excited about our conversation.
Amy: Let's start with introductions. Maria, our listener, Coven, has met you before, but we are firm believers that you're under no obligation to be who you were five minutes ago.
Amy: And also, I always think of the Mama Lola quote, she said of her biography, I hate the book because I change and it doesn't. So, even though our listener, Coven, has met you already, like, who are you today? What are you doing today?
Maria: Yeah, so, um, in terms of the work I do publicly, I I'm a tarot reader, teacher, ritual facilitator.
Maria: Um, my work is mostly focused around, um, liberation, anti supremacy, um, and also, um, blending spirituality and sexuality, or sensuality rather, because, um, I find that it's more interesting to divorce that from sexuality. Um, and so I, um, I aim for, um, expanding the access to safety and joy for all people, and so how my work has transformed or moved on, um, since the last time we met is that I've begun to focus more on community cultivation, um, and, and really emphasizing The importance of community and joy, um, because I really don't want us to lose sight of what we want at the end of all of the work we're putting into the world.
Amy: Yeah, we're gonna dive into that, um, in a bit. But first Lane, who are you today? This is your first time on the pod, so also, who were you yesterday? Where are you going? Where have you been? What's the scoop?
Lane: Yeah, those are the questions, right? You're asking like a very philosophical, like, quadruple sag, these big questions, and like, how much time do we have?
Lane: Uh, right now, like I was saying before Maria joined us, I'm in a fuck ton of pain right now, like I really fucked up my back. I am feeling most today like a tired single parent of young children and that is not like who I am publicly very much. I don't think people feel like to think of me as a parent when I am a transgender queer person and like this political activist.
Lane: Like it's hard for people to square that sometimes, but it's not hard for me to square it because that's who I am. And, uh, um, that is my life. And a lot of my being is devoted to caregiving. Um, Even though I am, uh, a transmasculine person and, uh, you know, part of what I was trying to do in the book and part of where I started with the cards was sort of like divesting, um, care from gender expectations.
Lane: And I think that is so fundamental to our society that care work is, uh, for women and femme folks to do. And it's a lot. It's a heavy, heavy load. It's a physically heavy load, not just mental. And I feel it in my body today. And that's where I'm at today.
Amy: So many people are contending with chronic pain and still having those expectations of caring for everyone around them at the same time.
Amy: How are you, how are you dealing with that today?
Lane: Um, stretching, breathing. I really, I feel really like focused on the body today. Like, that's what I really felt like I wanted to start this conversation talking about the sensory experiences of fall. Like I was just listening to Maria's conversation with Keir Bow, who is like a, one of my favorite people on the internet, um, with it's queer magic, uh, podcast.
Lane: I didn't get to hear the whole thing, but I was like, maybe like two thirds of the way through. And I just was really like, um, feeling like. Being present with my body today. And I know Maria and I share this kind of commitment to, um, to liberating bodies like they're so they could, you know, it can be really be like, uh, people can get in this like, well, free your mind for your mind kind of kind of thing, which is not Unimportant, but if you are substituting or be like, let's send books to prisons and free people's minds.
Lane: Well, actually, let's talk about freeing people, abolishing prisons and police and people are like, well, that's too much, you know, like freeing bodies gets gets people, uh, activated more than fraying minds, right? And that's something to notice, I think. And I think with, um, with Maria being, uh, really invested in talking about, like, pleasure and eroticism, I know Maria has a deep commitment to, like, actual liberation of bodies.
Lane: And that is so, so important to not, like, do this colonial separation of, like, spirituality, is this, like, ethereal thing over here, and then there's bodies, like, embodied liberation work means freeing bodies, right? And, and that means, like, a whole lot of different things, and, like, Eroticism might not be my particular thing, but it's, like, Maria's particular thing that I really, like, resonate with because it's about bodies.
Lane: It's not just about, like, this in the ether abstract thing. So, not to go off on a tangent, but I just felt, I felt, like, really, like,
Lane: Being present with, with bodies, with what's happening with actual bodies is so important right now and just feels, feels seasonal too. I mean, it's a season of decay and, um, it, yeah, facing death is part of what's uncomfortable to people about bodies, I think. So, um, just to get a little Scorpio type shit in there.
Lane: There we go. For the record,
Amy: we love a tangent. Go ahead, Marie.
Maria: Yeah. I, one, just really wanted to thank you, Lyne, for like seeing that, like, I don't necessarily like use, I don't like, yes, it's what I care about, but I never really thought of myself as, like, my work as around freeing bodies, but like. Yeah, that's kind of what I, like a lot of what I've been talking about.
Maria: And it's interesting that you mentioned that, you know, this is a time like that, you know, we are moving, we're moving into fall, there's decay and, and things are dying. And the fact of dying, as you said, is, is one thing people don't like about having a body. Um, and. I find that I have written about and talked a lot about, uh, liberation, including, like, physical liberation.
Maria: Um, but I realized that I wasn't in, like, living my life in alignment with that. I cared so much about other people's bodies. And, um, up until very recently, I've really resented having a body. I, you know, I, Most of my life I've wanted to be like an orb or something like to be able to be in multiple places at once and to see everything and to like hug my friends around the world whenever they need it.
Maria: What even without a body and like I just felt like it was such this. It was such a it. I thought it really felt like it limited my ability to live a full life, like, and on top of wanting to do all of these things, a lot of my energy does go into my body, whether that's like brushing my teeth or eating food and, um, and, Like, so I've recently, um, I guess I'll also get a little personal.
Maria: I've recently gotten into a lot of personal embodiment work, and I, um, am having fun sharing things that I'm learning throughout that journey, and I'm having fun learning from other people. Um, About, about embodiment. And so I have, uh, recently gotten in back into ballet and I'm also, uh, a baby burlesque dancer and like, I'm doing all of these things too, that, that are kind of uncomfortable, but like to remember that I can have a body and enjoy being in a body and appreciate it.
Maria: in such a way that I am attuned to that importance and joy and appreciation of having a body and applying it to what I want for other people. Um, so instead of just caring about other people's bodies and embodiment, I'm living, uh, I'm living with a focus on embodiment. And yes, like, That does mean the death and decay of a past way of living.
Maria: It does mean facing the reality of death, which I've never been afraid of, but I've Resented because I'm like, I want to do everything. Um, and so yeah, liberation of bodies, I think is a central focus, um, in both of my and Lane's work. Um, and so I'm really glad that you brought it up and connected it with the seasons because I really didn't, I didn't make that connection until now.
Amy: I want to ask about this word that is so foundational and powerful. connective between your two works. I know there are people listening right now for whom the idea of liberation is so, uh, foreign, for lack of a better word, that they don't even know how to internalize and externalize that notion, or even maybe what it means if they're so divorced from those feelings of liberation.
Amy: So I guess we'll start with Lane. Like, What does liberation mean to you? And feel free to go off on a tangent or, you know, keep, keep it two sentences if you like, but like, what does that word mean? And what does it mean to you? Liberation?
Lane: Yeah, I mean, I definitely subscribe to the like, nobody's free until everybody's free.
Lane: Like, it doesn't make sense to talk about individuals being free. Um, because Well, for one thing, I think we, especially in the United States, like under capitalism, racialized capitalism, we're trained to kind of associate freedom with independence and just being like, do whatever you want. That's freedom.
Lane: And that is not just. That's a good way to get exploited, right? Because then you're like divorced from everybody else and you're easy to control and really the most free you can be is when you're the most supported in community, like when you're really held and you don't have to devote all of your being to fucking survival.
Lane: That is the most free you can be, right? Like you when you are you Held in community, you get to flower as an individual, and that idea is like, beaten the fuck out of us, because that is too dangerous of an idea, that's why we have, you know, stop cop city protesters on RICO charges for using words like solidarity and mutual aid, it's like, you're a terrorist because you use those words, right?
Lane: Like, like, like, literally, that idea of being in community is such a threat. They have to convince us that community means losing your individuality, losing yourself, losing your autonomy, losing your freedom, when it's actually the exact opposite. Um, so to me, freedom means not having to worry about all the basics of survival, like that shit is taken care of, and I'm free to just, like, flower into Who I am without having like these social boxes that I have to check these social expectations that I'm supposed to fit to be acceptable to the community that I'm supposed to identify with, i.
Lane: e. like national identity, right? Um, being free of those constraints of like having to be a good American citizen, whatever you're supposed to be to be acceptable. Um, And free, yeah, free of hunger, free of violence, free of all these things that limit who you can be and what you can do. Not that, like, doing whatever the fuck I want is freedom, but like, I get to discover more about what's possible when I'm supported.
Lane: I guess that's the sort of long answer, but like, That's not possible until it's true for everybody.
Amy: 100%. Maria, what does liberation mean and what does it mean to you?
Maria: Well, I think that lane, like we have a pretty similar, um, a pretty similar definition. And so I won't get into all that I could say about it, but essentially I, I, I agree, you know, like it's for me.
Maria: I think it's about, and I'm sort of echoing Lane here, is like the freedom to choose to thrive, um, and choose to thrive without guilt. Causing harm to other people. Um, and with that, I think, like, I don't, I agree that can't happen without community support. Um, mass individualism, like, look where it's gotten us.
Maria: Um, and, you know, So many people are, and like I said, my work is moving toward community because I've done, um, I've gone into a lot of rabbit holes recently about the isolation epidemic. Um, and while I have feelings about that, that sort of, uh, sterile language, um, I do think, like, I have so many people, um, Either coming to me or that I'm reading about and from who are just like, I, you know, I, I just want to make friends.
Maria: How do I make friends as an adult and something like that's just like a little, it's a big, it's a big thing, but it's like a little sliver of what plagues us and what prevents us from lifting each other up and ensuring that we are all. You know, we, we, yes, have our basic needs met, but we are supported in flourishing beyond that.
Maria: Um, I, I refuse for this life to be, you know, to be worked so hard that I don't have time and energy to resist. Um, and, and, you know, I, I say refuse, but like, I, I gotta make money. I have to, you know, be, I, I have to take responsibility. Like, I have to take responsibility of my job. My, my parents, for example, um, and, and I enjoy that and I appreciate that, but also I consider how, um, how I have been lifted up by community.
Maria: I, I lived, um, for about like nine and a half years in a very small Isolated place. And since I've begun to have community and to be able to, um, I'm saying this with the caveat that, um, I do struggle with a lot of CPTSD symptoms and hypervigilance. Um, I. My journey into leaning into community without, um, defensiveness or fear or like mistrust, um, just like with no, no proof, no reason to, you know, like, what did you mean by that?
Maria: And so on and so forth. And so I think with this whole like liberation and encouraged and being able to encourage each other to thrive, the atmosphere becomes less so like. How do I survive? And how do I get ahead? And it's more like, I, I am part of this interconnected web of, of beings. And not only does that support me, but that also makes me responsible.
Maria: And to not just take that responsibility as a burden, but see it as, you know, Oh, I don't know, sacred, uh, responsibility to, to honor. Um, I think that's part of liberation is bringing minds, freeing bodies, freeing ourselves from what, from the sort of like super competitive landscape and realizing I have been supported in my ability to thrive.
Maria: Therefore, I want to do that to other people. Um, and so I guess what I'm trying to say is like liberation is also, um, it's like freeing ourselves from like individualistic mindset that causes harm to others. To our minds very much. We see all the time to our bodies. Um, and so I don't know. I guess I, I, I'm just saying ditto to lane and just, um, you know, really, really putting emphasis on the flourishing part of it because yes, we all need our basic needs.
Maria: Uh, you know, and I, and I kind of resent that we're still at the stage where we're like. Working to get everyone's basic needs covered. Um, I'm glad that, you know, I'm glad to participate in that work, but I, I want us to thrive and I want us to experience joy and how joyful can we be if we're all trying, we're doing this like crabs in a barrel.
Maria: Yeah.
Lane: And I think trust is so integral. I just want to like pull that out from what you said. Like, I struggle with that too. Um, but, and trust and competition can't coexist and like a capitalist system is fundamentally based on competition. And a lot of times people mistake, uh, Collectives of competition, like a marketplace as community, because that feels normal, right?
Lane: And it's like, you know, then it gets confusing, or I've had that experience. I'll just speak for myself. It's been confusing to me to think that I'm in community with people. And discover that actually they see me as competition and that that's that's that's our connection is competition and I didn't realize that that was the way that they saw it, you know, and that and like trust and competition can't can't coexist and liberation can't exist without mutual trust.
Lane: And I think, you know, I think there are, you know, I had this conversation with someone recently about like the hierarchy of needs, like basic needs have to be met first, and then you can thrive. And I don't think that that's actually true. You know, like we see a lot of people Um, fighting for liberation who don't have their basic needs met.
Lane: And, um, being in relationships of trust with people, no matter how little you have, can be very liberating, um, in a very real way, and, and start to get some of those needs met. Um, but I don't, I don't think like, thinking that we all have to be like, fed and housed and have every like, perfect health care and all this like, having to have everything first.
Lane: And then thrive and then fight for more like that. Like stair way, sort of like this, then this, then this checklist kind of thing. If you look at people actually fighting for liberation, that's not actually true. It's like people who have the least tend to fight the most, like disabled people are like the masters of mutual aid.
Lane: The inventors really of like mutual aid, truly mutual, where it's like disabled people helping disabled people to thrive. It's not, it's not the people who like have the most comfort who are then like, Oh, I'm comfortable now I'm going to fight for liberation for everyone else that actually doesn't happen.
Lane: Right. And so like this hierarchy of needs. Um, yes, we do need to have our needs met but it's not like a checkbox that has to be met. First, the trust, though, the trusting relationships, I feel like is super foundational, and the left is shitty at it, this left is shitty at building trust with people, because everything is like a litmus test, or is like a, you know, I know more than you, you didn't do the reading, blah blah blah, like one up kind of shit.
Lane: And that's not any way to build trust with people. Um, but also, you know, talking a good talk and doing nothing is not a good way to build trust with people either. Like I've definitely been in relationships with people who could say all the right things all the time and never change their behavior. And that is not a way to build trust with anybody.
Lane: Like, so we all like have to be more practiced at building trust, which also means being more practiced at being in conflict and resolving conflict and being able to make repair in conflict and stuff. And like people would rather, rather just avoid all that, you know, and avoidance is not a good way to build trust.
Lane: And I just haven't been encountering these kinds of things a lot lately. And, um, It's hard, it's hard, but I do think trust, like, even more than like food and water and shelter is so, so important, um, for liberation work. It can't be bypassed, it really can't.
Amy: Thank you both for giving me this perfect lead up and segue to something I have in my notes to talk about, which is the, the tarot correspondence.
Amy: Like, um, some people feel, believe, think, whatever, um, that, like, each year has a card that corresponds to the year, and 2024 has been but 2025 is the hermit. And I want to read something that each of you wrote that really struck me about this, like, hermit energy. Maria, you wrote, this is from Tarot for the hard work.
Amy: People, go buy a copy if you haven't already. Quote, The hermit does not retreat to escape the world. They do it to get closer to the mysterious divine within. And later you say the hermit carries a lantern to shine on the community to which they must return. And Lane, in 78 Acts of Liberation, y'all pick up that book if you haven't already, you wrote, being a hermit is living outside the mainstream, but it doesn't necessarily have to mean being isolated or solitary.
Amy: And then a question prompt that you give. from the Hermit is, do I need to step away from influences that are particularly loud, unhelpful, or obstructing in order to discover my needs, beliefs, and strategies for realizing a meaningful life? So I want to ask both of you, like, how do you think that this Hermit energy is going to manifest in 2025?
Amy: And how do we take our ideas about the Hermit, And transfer them onto, like, trusting and reaching out to our community and holding that, that lantern. I know personally, when I think of Hermit, that's not what I'm thinking about. And I was so grateful to read in both of your books that that's not how we're interpreting the Hermit.
Amy: So please, tell me all of your thoughts about the Hermit, about next year, about community about the, again, the internal and external worlds, trying to find that balance like we are, because it's the fall equinox, all of that, many thousands of questions.
Maria: I guess I'll go since Lane talked last. Um, as far, okay, so first I'll talk about the Hermit itself, and then I'll talk about What we might see in 2025.
Maria: Um, and I just think one thing, the first thing that comes to me when, um, when you shared, that came to me when you shared that passage from my book is the sort of emphasis in, in I don't know which dialogue, you know, that, you know, your practice is about self improvement and getting to your higher self.
Maria: And I'll pause there just to say, like, your higher self is still you. Um, it's not, it's, and, It's not a hierarchy, like, it's maybe your ideal version of yourself, but, um, it's sort of like, you know, how can I be more abundant, have a more abundant life? How can I strengthen my spirituality? And, um, and, like, at the end of all of your, uh, self improvement, self spiritual self actualization, like, If that work does not go back into the world somehow, then, I don't know how to say this tactfully, but I'm not sure how much it matters if it just dies along with you.
Maria: Um, and so, Hermit, I think, with the Hermit, I think there's a real opportunity in one's relationship with that card to do a lot of, um, Self checking and self inventory in relation to the divine, and the divine, in my perspective a lot of the time, is this Divine, or, um, I don't know, that's the best word I can think of, but the interconnectedness of it all, to really understand, like, to take a step back from the noise of it all, to, uh, you know, do that sort of, I don't know, a healing is not the right word, but, um, the work on the self, um, and the, uh, The responsibilities that we have to ourselves, you know, and to our true individual selves and that in relation to the all that there is, which is all interconnected and I think it's, I think it's a disservice.
Maria: To consider that this card, to forget that this card, the Hermit always has to return back to the world, um, and I don't really think that we have to work with the Major Arcana in a super linear way, but you can't stay in your echo chamber in your little bubble forever. It's what matters is. Yes, what transforms you?
Maria: But what transforms the way you show up in the world? Um, and what, what do you take from your mental or physical, spiritual pilgrimage? And what does that, how do you bring that back into the world? Um, no one is an island. And we. Are part of a community and, uh, you know, we should be living in a more I hate shoulds, but, you know, we should be living in a more community oriented fashion.
Maria: And so when I think about 2025 and the hermit, I'm. Hoping not to see a ton of rhetoric around, um, really focusing on the I, the N word, the personal, uh, just, like, the personal sort of, like, spiritual elevation, and less so, like, I, I, I, I predict that there will be a lot of, like, You know, your personal spiritual journey.
Maria: Um, and I hope that, um, we see more of like, yes, your personal spiritual journey, but what is that, what do you do the next year? Like you don't just stay in your bubble. You have to come back to the world sometimes. And I don't think that your personal, uh, self improvement is, uh, bears much meaning if it doesn't.
Maria: Translate to how you show up in the world for yourself, for others, for movements, for, for the things that you really believe in that lead to liberation. And there are many paths to liberation. Like, like Lane said, like, like, I just can't imagine thinking that you have to have, like, This linear path on this, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, um, in order to, you know, to, like, support this, uh, support creating a more ideal future, um, I, I, Know that everyone's path is different.
Maria: And so maybe sometimes the Herman is an opportunity to look within in relation to, um, your, like one's connection with the external world and to understand like, okay, I look within, I know a little bit more about who I am, how I show up and what does, how does that translate into my specific, how my specific.
Maria: Um, role in this path to liberation. Um, how is it unique and how can I show up because there's only one me and no one can do what you do the way you do it. Tangents! But yes, the Hermit, um, great archetype, uh, but I hope it's not all just about the self next year.
Amy: Yeah, I mean, again, that sort of archetypal or typical image of the Hermit, you know, he, he is holding that great lantern and I, I would love for us to focus more on the lantern than on, than on the isolating idea of the hermit.
Amy: Lane, what does the hermit mean to you? How would, ideally, how would the, that hermit energy manifest in 2025?
Lane: Yeah, I mean, I think tarot cards are always descriptive and proscriptive, especially when you're talking about card of the year. So like, This year with strength, uh, as a card of endurance, like it can describe the fact that we're seeing more and more of the same with a seeming different face, but it actually an enduring policy of the people in charge, right?
Lane: Um, that a strength year, we knew that was not going to change, right? Like, um, we're going to see it. Steadfastness, uh, even if that's not what we wanna see, and prescriptively for us, um, being steadfast is what is asked of us to not, um, capitulate and not give up hope and not, you know, and to, and to keep going strong.
Lane: Right? So like that's, that's like a descriptive and a prescriptive, um. For so for the hermit, you know, I really strongly correlate the major arcana with their astrological signs. So for the hermit, it's Virgo, which is an earth sign. So bringing this back to what we started the conversation with with embodiment, it's an earth sign, which is so important.
Lane: And what is so cool about Virgo is that it's a mutable earth sign. It's it's coming into reality. It's it's Digging into reality, but that doesn't mean coming up against a brick wall, right? It's not face the facts. Here's the facts, period. It's not a fixed reality. It's coming into reality that is not fixed.
Lane: And so I just think, you know, one of the, one of the sort of phrases that comes to mind for me with the hermit is like, tuning out to tune in. And that, that is like the The prerequisite for, like, getting into reality and I, like, honestly, I think of being trans, right? Like, I, you know, I call the nines acts of realization, meaning, like, making something real, right?
Lane: And so, like, the nine of cups I have as, like, gender euphoria, like, it's one thing to, like, realize, like, to understand, oh, I'm trans, but to then embody, experience in my body, gender euphoria is like a nine It's like in my body that I'm having this experience. Right. And so, but I had to like tune out a lot of expectations and messaging and assumptions about myself and things to tune into that.
Lane: Real reality, I'm trans, and then to have that gender euphoric experience is even deepening it further, like, into my body, right? So, like, to me, prescriptively and descriptively, the hermit in 2025, we're talking about post election, right? Whoever ends up being president. I think what we will see is a tuning out to tune in to do the reality that they want to do, right?
Lane: It's they're going to tune. They're going to tune us out for sure. Um, they're going to do what they're going to do, whoever it is. They're going to do what they're going to do, and they're not, they're not listening to us. We know this already, but I think it's going to be even more evident after the election is over, um, when people don't have that to attach to this sort of symbolic event.
Lane: There's no more symbolic shit to latch on to anymore post election, right? It's not going to be about, like, identity and representation and symbols and shit anymore. It's going to be like, now we're in the shit, right? Now we're in the shit. And dealing with the reality that we're given, and Whether it's Trump, whether it's Harris or whatever the reality is, they're going to be tuning out what they want to tune out to dive down in to what they want to accomplish, and that will be seen.
Lane: That will call on us prescriptively to tune out the noise, tune out all of the co-optation, all of the, all of the shit that is designed to distract us, right? To tune in. And I mean, not just individuals tuning in, but in our communities tuning that shit out to tune in to like, what the fuck are we gonna do about it here and now?
Lane: For real, on the ground. And like, I'm excited for that, honestly. Like, let's get real. Let's get real. Because, um, that's all we can do, post election, right, is deal with reality. So. Um, I'm, I'm ready for that.
Amy: Yeah, I mean that's, that's what I love so much about both of your books and and how they act as kind of compendium to each other is that it's very much that let's get real energy.
Amy: Um, like for y'all. It's not. Um, the cards aren't just like a personal divination practice, but they, they become action items. I've known so many witches who, you know, they get kind of stuck in like prophecy and analysis and, and asking the same question over and over and just sort of that inner cycle that just spins and spins and spins.
Amy: So, other than buying your books, again, Tarot for the Hard Work, 78 Acts of Liberation, like, I recommend this, people, if you have that feeling, but how do we transform a tarot practice from this cycles of spinning and prophecy and analysis and over analysis into action items for our lives?
Lane: I love doing it with other people.
Lane: Like, there's no better way to get out of your head than doing it with people. And it doesn't have to be a monetized reader client relationship. In Baltimore, we have Solidarity Tarot. It's a group that meets to read together. And we're all the querent. And we're all the reader. It's like collaborative reading.
Lane: We talk about politics. We do readings on it. And like, all levels, right? We're just bringing our own experiences to the cards there on the table in front of everybody. And like, I think there's no better way to get out of your head. To be like we're equals here. You're not the reader reading for me. I'm not the reader reading for you.
Lane: We're reading together and like you see it this way and I see it this way and like how are we going to negotiate that? Um, and that is a trust building exercise also because we may not, I agree lockstep on what it means. And that's good. Right? We can talk about it. And, um, That's, that's been awesome for me.
Lane: I love doing that. I would love for everybody to have that experience.
Maria: Yeah, I really love that. Um, it leads me to think, and I know people have like their feelings about this word, but I think it's Um, something we can all benefit from is this is complicating the cards and to complicate doesn't necessarily mean to overwhelm or, um, restrict anyone from having this personal relationship with the cards, but I think a lot of like understanding what we can do from the cards.
Maria: Um, A lot of that comes from listening to different people, from talking to different people, from having discussions and understanding that, um, and understanding as, you know, the famous book says, like, you know, all conflict is not abuse. And so it means, you know, sometimes having these difficult conversations and maybe like some back and forth and, and.
Maria: to take what you want and leave the rest. Um, as far as my own personal practice, I am very, I've always been very, very, methodical? Like, every time I, like, I wake up, I make my to do list, um, if, you know, when I do my, like, regular personal practice, I, I'm like, sure, this is what this means, but what am I going to do with it?
Maria: I think I'm just kind of an antsy person, and so, um, I can, you know, read a card, interpret what it means for me, um, but, For me to get out of my head and have that like, okay, I got to remember to do this. I got to remember that this theme is the theme for today or this week or this month or quarter, um, to, to get it out of my head and just like, to cease.
Maria: rumination. I have to bring it out into the world. And from then I'm like, okay I'm energized about this. I feel like my reading was meaningful. Um, because if it's just like, okay this is something like You To think about today, and maybe the, maybe, yes, there is value in considering what to think about today, but I want to, you know, also note that an action can be just noticing.
Maria: Um, and so, in terms of reading the tarot and, um, Making that relationship more action oriented is, I think, uh, opening ourselves. I think it involves opening ourselves up to different ideas of what it means to make an impact on the world and Sometimes the thing to do is small, like noticing, but, you know, noticing is often how we learn, um, and avoid bypassing and such.
Maria: And so, um, so, yes, I think tarot is a very powerful, like, personal tool, but I'm just, I, I'm too antsy to just, like, leave it in my head, um, because I, I don't know what to do with that information.
Lane: Yeah, if people don't like the word complicating, I think it's the same, almost the same as saying expanding. Like when you say complicating, I'm like, yeah, making it more, making it more, right? Like it's, it's expansive. It's not meant to be, oh, make it harder, like harder to understand, right? It's not that, it's, it's making it.
Lane: Richer, right? Making it more textured, making it like you always talk about holographic, like making it More faceted, more, making it more, right? Like I'm a big Jupiter person, right? I'm like all about like, make it mean more, right? Like that's to me what I hear when you say making it more complicated or complicating it.
Lane: Um, yeah, having more perspectives on it is good. I think there's a, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like there's a perception of me that I'm like anti Psychology, anti therapy, anti inner work, all this kind of stuff, and like, I'm against, I'm like, counterpoint to that, and it's just like, well, yes and no, I mean, like, I definitely try to always say that it's both, and I see more of one than the other, so it's like bending the stick a little bit to be like, hey, what about this way, you know, but I definitely engage with both.
Lane: Inner and outer, and it's like, I'm not ever saying, like, discard the old meanings of the cards, or discard traditional meanings of the cards. Like, emperors still fucking exist, basically. Like, actual kings, unfortunately, still exist. I'm not saying like pretend that meaning isn't there, right, it's like it's about adding more possible levels, it's like use your psychology language of like self sovereignty or whatever, actual literal Kings, and like what else what else what else could it be like what do we dream this card means in a liberated future to, not instead to.
Lane: Right? Like that's what I think of when you say complicated. I think of like, like, what else can we add on? Not, not in a burdensome, overwhelming way, just like you said, not to, not to be like, Oh, it's now it's another set of terms I have to memorize. No, it's different languages. Like what could be more liberating than knowing more languages to be able to speak to more people, right?
Lane: Like more opportunities to learn more, more people you can know and connect with. That's it's, it's, it's the moreness of it. It's not to, like, burden you with having to, like, Memorize more shit, or whatever.
Maria: I agree, um, and Lane, if people I certainly don't have those perceptions of you, or the way that you present yourself, but Right,
Lane: you know me though!
Maria: Yeah, that's true, that's true. Um, but At this, you know, I know you. Um, and yes, that's true. But also, if that's how people perceive you, then
Maria: there are a million other tarot readers, or however many, who are talking about different ways to engage with the tarot. And if they see a certain emphasis or theme in your work, I don't think it's to be, you know, I think it's just, you know, it's Another way, it's another layer, like you said texture, like it's adding texture to the cards.
Maria: And if you do want someone who's specifically using, you know, like, clinical psychology language, I'm sure there's someone else out there who like every single thing they talk about in tarot. But, um, to expect any of us to check all of these boxes in order to, like, have a a about, to be perceived as a valuable contributor to, uh, the tarot community is quite restrictive, I think.
Maria: You know, I, you know, I, I definitely I don't, I don't like the idea of putting readers in certain boxes. If one reader wants to talk more about one thing, great. I have that, uh, that source to learn from, um, and if someone else wants to talk about something else, like, okay, like, I, I can't be everything to everyone.
Maria: None of us can be everything to everyone. Um, and I. You know, if people feel that way, then they do, and I do,
Lane: I often people express surprise when one on one I'm like, kind and understanding, like they're surprised that I'm kind and understanding. And like, it's kind of a backhanded compliment, I guess, to be like, wow.
Lane: You're way nicer than I thought. I mean, there have been people who have found out that I stand on business too. Like there have been people who have found out that I am not kind. If they cross me, right? Like, if, like, cross my values, right? Like, they, there have been people who have found out that behind closed doors, I'm not like, oh, but you're fine.
Lane: It's okay. Don't worry about it. Like, like, they expect white people to do with each other. I have had people test me on that. To be like, oh, but you know, you know, I'm cool. Like, I'm cool. Right? And I'm just like, no. And, like, they find out that I can be less nice than they think I will be, too, but it's weird to me for when people are like, Oh, I thought you would be a lot meaner or whatever.
Lane: It's just like, uh, I don't know. It's funny. It's like, this is all from love. This is like, justice work is like, not. separable from love for me, and I know that's true for you too. I think that's why we bonded so closely too. It's just like, how do you even understand liberation work if it's not about love, right?
Lane: Like, I don't know. Um, I see some people who just seem so, like, they think they're doing liberation work, but it's about, like, getting it right, and they have, like, this anxiety about getting it right, and I got to get it right, and I've got to be seen as a good person, and, like, It's this real uptight, like, clearly they feel like they're self limiting, and it's like, no, look, no, that's not, like, if it's so hard for you to be compassionate to other people, I don't think you're doing it right.
Lane: Like, I don't know, I don't know, like. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just kind of rambling now, sorry. But it was like, yeah, I'm not a mean person. I love people, right? Like, that's, that's part of why, like, I care about people being liberated. Uh, I really love, love people.
Maria: Yeah, I think this work is rooted in love and sometimes love does not.
Maria: Come across as like ooey gooey, forgiving everything that other people do behind, I definitely know like behind the scenes. It's like, sometimes, uh, there are some people in our community that I can think of, um, who have been, um, very much like, I believe this, this, and this, but you know, I'm not racist. You know, I'm not this.
Maria: And it's like,
Lane: I'm not giving you a pass. Don't, don't come to me for that. Like, yeah.
Maria: Sometimes love is checking each other. Right, right. Part of this liberation work is to be open to being checked and not, and yes, you can, like, take, you know, you, you can discern, um, like, You can discern, like, intent or so on and so forth, but, like, I often, uh, I find that it's helpful to, even if you don't agree with the feedback, there's an opportunity to understand why someone would think that about us, why someone would bring that up to us, like, how am I presenting myself?
Maria: Am I being irresponsible in, in my, in my presentation? You know, how I show up in the world. And I think those, like, regardless of how you take it, regardless of how you take criticism, there, it's always an opportunity to question. And honestly, some criticism, I just throw out the door, like, how many people have been like, you, this work is It's not spiritual.
Maria: Uh, tarot should not be connected with politics. And, you know, of course my response is like, okay, you know, my, my dignity and humanity are, you know, like, what, what are you talking about? Right.
Lane: Yeah,
Amy: there's 100%. That old, like, feminist saying, the personal is political, and I think that that's the case across the board, that we can't divorce, you know, what we do in our lives from the politics of our world.
Amy: They are, like, deeply, deeply connected, not even connected, like, whipped together like a batter of ingredients, right?
Lane: Yeah,
Amy: I do. Yeah.
Lane: Oh, go ahead. Yep. No, no, I was just gonna say, I think the phrase has been co opted to mean something else, whereas just like me living my own personal individual life is politics enough.
Lane: Um, so I would almost want to just say it in the reverse sort of meaning what it used to mean, but say the political is personal, right? Like, I would just speak like everything, anything, everything can be. co opted, including like the idea of like spells for collective liberation, spiritual activism, all this stuff to mean something else to mean, to mean the opposite even to me, like taking you out of collective to take, to be more internally focused or to be like thoughts and prayers version of activism where it's like, nobody would call that activism.
Lane: Um, Except, except you're calling it a spell. And then we have to like, get into like, well, what is magic then? And to me, at least like material reality is an absolutely essential element of magic, right? Like thoughts and prayers, like, that's fine. That's its own thing, but it's not magic and it's not activism, right?
Lane: Like personal development. Again, good, good thing to do is not magic and is not activism, right? Like. When you're talking about activism, you're talking about making an impact beyond just you. And so I just, yeah, like, when people talk, like, it's just, we're getting into the space where, like, there's those of Maria and I and other people who have been doing, like, liberation work and have been leaving, leading magical lives, right?
Lane: Um, Are becoming more visible and then people want to like grab onto that and like use that as branding or repackage that or think that they can take an easy road to be like, yeah, I'm doing that thing too. And you just have to ask questions about impact always, I think. It's just like, okay, if I went up to a church and the church was like, we're an activist church, and I'd be like, great, what's the activism?
Lane: And they're like, praying for people. And I'm like, you would be doing that anyway. That's not any different from any other church. Like, I'm going to have the same questions. for witches who are like, I'm doing spells for collective liberation. And I'm like, great, is it working? Because I know like, I take from all different traditions, right?
Lane: Like I've learned from modern witches, I have learned from traditional witches, I have learned from like, skeptic, atheist, science minded witches, right? And like, there's a lot that I don't vibe with, with like traditional witches. But one thing that I think they do get right, is that like, when you are casting spells, the result matters, right?
Lane: It's like you cast the spell, and it's like, did that person then leave you the fuck alone when you put them in the freezer? Like, or not, right? And it's like, there's, at least with traditional witchcraft, I feel like there's an acknowledgement of like, if it didn't work, I didn't do the spell right, or I just, the magic didn't work, right?
Lane: Whereas I feel like with modern witches, a lot of the time, it's like, Well, the outcome wasn't what I intended, but I had this personal transformation inside of me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So really it was a good thing. Like, fine. That's fine. Like personal transformation. Again, I'm for it. It's good. But did it have a material impact that was intended?
Lane: That is, That's the difference to me between like a magic spell and like personal transformation work. And I feel like when those things get blurred and language gets used to be like, well, a spell, like words are spells. Like, yes, you should be mindful of your language and words are spells. Just like personal, political can be co opted to mean like, all I have to do is talk.
Lane: Right. And talking is not sufficient. Right. So just like, I just feel like I want people to be more discerning and question with practitioners, with peers, with everybody, like, what is the impact if we're talking about collective liberation and activism? What is the actual impact of what I'm doing? Is it more of like something that's transforming inside of me?
Lane: That is Fine, but name that. That's what it is. That is not activism. It may make activism possible, which is awesome. If it strengthens you to do the activism, that is awesome. And don't conflate the two, is what I'm saying. Right?
Maria: I agree. I, um, on the topic of spell work, I do see what you mean by like, The sort of modern witchcraft, or however you call it, um, the sort of like, if the spell didn't work out, at least I sent that energy out into the universe, and it's like, okay, like, sure, but that's just like thoughts and prayers, and I know, like, I, I know that spells come in all sorts of different ways, but, One thing I do appreciate about the spells I do for myself and have been helpful for myself have been setting like being practical about looking back.
Maria: Um, and, um, you know, I set reminders like check in, like, What's the impact three days in three days? Um, what's the impact in three weeks and what's the impact in three months? Um, and I can go further than that, or I can use different, uh, I don't know, intervals of checking in, but I find it really unfortunate that all the effort that people put into doing spells and just sort of moving on when it doesn't work as intended, because not only Like, yes, you move on and you forget that, like, intention or you deprioritize it, but you also lose the opportunity to look past what you intended and really look at what actually happened.
Maria: Um, and I, and like, I don't think that's to be ignored. Um, and if nothing as self defined happened, then that's something to explore as well. Um, you can't just, I don't think it's responsible to do spell work and not care about results that aren't. Or to
Lane: rationalize, rationalize it to be like, to like. not build competency or skills or learning because you're constantly rationalize what you're doing anyway.
Lane: Like, yes, I see, I feel like I see a lot of that where it's just like, this is what I'm putting out and just rationalizing, rationalizing, like it was good because this right, regardless of what happens. And like, that's like, just a good vibes only kind of mindset, right? It's like, you, that's not accepting feedback from.
Lane: Reality, right? And it's like, how do you ever like, I know I'm a Capricorn rising, I could be a little too focused on like competencies. Right. And I, you know, I know that but it's also like, yeah, I do want to see results. And and to, to, to acknowledge at least impact or lack thereof and to learn from it.
Lane: It's not to shame anybody, but it's just to be like, can we look at real life, you know, and take that feedback.
Maria: Yes.
Amy: I want to return to, um, this phrase that you used, Lane. I think both of your books, again, Maria Minnis, Tarot for the Hard Work, Lane Smith, 78 Acts of Liberation, making it mean more, making it mean more, whether we're talking about our tarot practice, whether we're talking about our magic, whether we're talking about our personal political lives, just making them mean more.
Amy: more. Neither of you are saying, this is what this is now. You're expanding our notions of possibility and what these practices and our lives and our impact on our communities, the lanterns that we hold, can be, what they can mean. Um, Thank you so much both for your time today. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure to, to kind of sit back and watch you two riff on each other.
Amy: Um, for our listeners who were undoubtedly moved to support you and your work other than buying your books, let's start with Maria. How can our listeners support you and your work?
Maria: Yeah. Um, so, you know, If you want to follow along with me, you can subscribe to my Holographic Space Newsletter, um, Holographic Space Index, um, you can find the registration form on that, um, at, on my website at mariamenis.
Maria: com. You can also follow, um, my, um, website. erratic Instagram at feminists F E M I N N I S, um, and also at the time of this, uh, at the time of this, uh, this Wonderful conversation coming out into the world, the fall equinox. Um, I'll have made, uh, an interesting announcement around, um, a community program that I'm really excited about.
Maria: Um, that's chock full of, um, Lots of different things, uh, personal and collective, um, and I'm really excited about that. So if you want, um, one on one time with me, that's included in that program. Um, and otherwise, I don't think I'm doing readings until like 2026 or 2027. Um, but regardless, I'm always happy to connect respectfully, um.
Maria: Uh, uh, through my website, my contact form or Instagram. Um, and yeah, I'm around and you can always catch my book, um, tarot for the Hard Work, uh, and I guess a lot of major re retailer re re uh, retailers. Um, and I just wanna mention that bookshop.org is a great place to purchase books because I love supporting indie bookstores.
Amy: Hell yeah. Again, um, I feel that both of your books are like excellent compendiums to each other, so if you're going to buy one, listeners, just buy both, just do it. Get them as a set. Lane, how can our listeners support you?
Lane: Yes, they both have beautiful gay rainbow covers, and they just like look so nice together.
Lane: Um, yeah, uh, my website is mxlane, L A N E, Smith. And I'm on Instagram at left lane Smith. Um, I would love it if more people would leave, leave reviews. If you, even if you don't buy it on Amazon, if you leave a review on Amazon or on Goodreads, that will help me get a little boost. Um, And yeah, tell your friends to buy the book.
Lane: I'm, I'm really, really, really wanting to write a second one. I have had an idea since 2018 that I'm like, just itching to work on and get out there. Um, this one has to do better. First, for I think for that to be a possibility, though. So I'm supporting this book. Um, would get you another one that I think you all, those of you who have shown a lot of love for this book, uh, so far would be super, super, super into, um, also spiritual and political melding themes, um, in a way I think you'd be really into, um, but I'm not going to tell you what that is.
Lane: Um, Tarot and Politics Zine is coming back. I have not told anybody that yet, but I believe I will be announcing that at the Equinox, and submissions are going to be open during Libra season, and I will have some surprise co editors with me on that this time that, um, I'm not gonna say now, but you will see, uh, at the equal, a nice Equinox surprise.
Lane: Um, yeah, we'll bring back Tarot and Politics Zine to have a paid venue to uplift, um, you know, more marginalized, uh, Tarot folks who don't have immediate access to publishing, um, and to get them, you know, More to get people more familiar with their work and for them to have a paid venue for their for their writing.
Lane: I'm going to increase the payment. Um, like I didn't do a zine last year because I was working on my book but you know, two years ago I was paying people 50 per submission and inflation, quote, in quotes inflation, corporate greed. Uh, tax has been fucking crazy and it's like so expensive just to live. And so I want to pay people, um, more this time, but yeah, politics, terror and politics zine will be back.
Lane: So you can look out for that pretty much. I pretty much just announced things on, on Instagram. Unfortunately, that is kind of my online home, but if that were to ever implode, disappear, become impossible to exist on. There is my website. You could always check there for what, uh, what happens to me. So yeah, I think that's it.
Amy: And of course, listeners, all of these links will be in the show notes. Um, head over to the Missing Witches website for all of these links. Um, again, I feel like we just have scratched the surface, so I look forward to we three witches meeting again in the future to talk more about the communal hermit spirit.
Amy: energy of the coming year. And, um, again, thank you so much for spending this time with me. I'm so excited to share this conversation with our listeners.
Lane: Hey, thank you.
Amy: And bless a fucking bee.
You must be a witch.
Amy: If you want to support the Missing Witches Project, join the coven. Find out how at MissingWitches.
Amy: com, or buy our books New Moon Magic and Missing Witches. And check out our deck of oracles. The Missing Witches deck of oracles.
