For summer solstice, we sit down with 'Tu Tía Bruja' podcaster Bex Carlos, and 'Brujas: The Magic And Power Of Witches Of Color' author Lorraine Monteagut to discuss the history and reclamation of the word Bruja. We dig into appropriation, discrimination, assimilation, ally-ship and magic to play in the space between tradition and invention. Together we celebrate bumbling, joy and delusion on our way to our power.
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"We are the magic. We embody the magic."
Bex Carlos
Lorraine Monteagut, PhD, is a writer, astrologer, and all around green witch. The daughter of Cuban-Colombian immigrants, she studies bruja feminism and the reclamation of ancestral healing traditions. Her first book, Brujas: The Magic and Power of Witches of Color, explores the ways that descendants of the indigenous Americas and the Latinx/Afro-Caribbean diaspora are breathing new life into historically stigmatized spiritual practices. Lorraine resides in St. Pete, Florida, and on her free time, she enjoys growing plants, beekeeping, hiking, and listening to podcasts about 90s movies and tv shows—especially her favorite, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She is currently working on a short story collection inspired by occult folklore from the diaspora. Follow her on Instagram.
Bex Carlos is a self identifying Bruja, audio witch, tarot reader, and cannabis magick practitioner. Her practice of Brujería consists of Mexican culture fused with y2k aesthetics. Tu Tía Bruja, her podcast discusses the vulnerable side of being a Bruja while focusing on topics that would make your inner child scream with joy. Follow Bex and Tu Tia Bruja on Instagram.
"Ally-ship is about understanding boundaries."
Lorraine Monteagut
READ THE FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:
Amy: If you want to support the Missing Witches project, find out how @missingwitches.com. Pre-order New Moon Magic 13 anti-capitalist tools for resistance and re-enchantment.
Hello and welcome to another episode of The Missing Witch podcast.
Risa is here celebrating the summer solstice with our guests. Thank you so much for being here. Author Lorraine Monteagut, podcaster Audio witch, Bex Carlos, we're so excited to be in circle with you both today and to have you interacting with each other to tell us about this word, this word that's nebulous, like the word witch is, but in a different way.
So let's start with Bex. I, I would love for you to introduce yourself, whoever you are today, wherever you are today. And also if you could get in into the word bruja, brujeria, and tell us not only what it means in your definition, but also what it means to you.
Bex: Yeah. Again, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to be here.
I'm Bex Carlos, if you are not familiar with myself or my work. I am a podcaster. I have a show called which would translate to your witchy ants and vaguely. And I work the term bruja for me is, especially now, it's to re-channel this term that the Spanish used against all different traditions outside of their own.
My, my family we are from this. It feels like it's getting so deep, you know, like the core of who I am. Like who are you? We're from Mexico. I'm Mexican-American first gen and it's. The rechanneling of a word that cast my grandmother out of the pueblo that she lived in. She and her family always had this like word leming over them, that they were witches.
And so they lived in the barranca, which is kind of out in the outskirts. And an interesting fact, father Thio the folk saint died like on, on the land of what was my father's like, childhood home, you know? So it's it's, it's always been this heavy word to kind of explain what is unknown, and it's also a way of demonizing people who practiced indigenous or any kind of form of the African traditional religions.
It was a way of hiding tradition, faith in public. So that's sort of my definition of brujeria and, and bruja. And for me using the term is a way of rechanneling what. Demonized my grandmother I actually had this thought cuz I, I work in a lot of different types of magics, cannabis being one of them because of the ancestral ties.
And I was smoking a blunt and burning hell money, and I just had this thought of like, holy shit, I'm getting compensated now to do this work that feels right for me. That would've ca you know, chastised my, my grandmother. And all she really did was light candles and pray, you know, like, true. And, and maybe she worked with herbs, maybe she didn't, that's nobody's business.
But like, was that really worth taking her, making her feel like she had to be kicked out of the town, you know? So yeah, that's, that's me, that's what I do. I'm an audio witch, as you mentioned, working in podcasting and different audio work. Yeah, that's who I am in a nutshell. Awesome.
Lorraine: So I am Lorraine, and thank you so much.
I've been wanting to meet y'all for so long. I've been listening to Missing Witches for a little bit now. And I, one of the Brujis Bruja that Bex mentioned who are newly reclaiming this word, I am a child of Cuban and Colombian immigrants. I'm the first generation to have been born in this country in Miami.
And I am reluctant to say that. It has been an easy identity bruja it is wr with all sorts of difficulties even today, even after I kind of made my work on this. So, just to back up a little, I recently wrote a book called brujas, the Magic and Color the Magic and Power of Witches of Color came out in 2021 and I just recently celebrated the, the paperback release this month.
So it's really exciting cuz I've seen the project from, you know, the early stages that started in my dissertation 10 years ago to this wonderful moment where it found its niche audience and did well enough to warrant going to paperback. So I did a little tour and celebrated that and it was wonderful, but it also brought up.
All these old fears and insecurities around like the constantly involving nature of the bruja identity. And like Bex's commented, bruja has been historically a bad word. It was something that just as there were the witch hunts in Europe and in Americas, there were in here in the United States, there were also parallel [00:06:00] and even like way more egregious, terrible witch hunts across Latin America, the Afro-Caribbean diaspora that were basically mounted to genocide because it targeted and demonized groups of people who would never themselves probably used the word uja.
You know, my grandmothers, they wouldn't have used that word. That was a bad word to them because they in turn also demonized. Other ways of knowing. And that's the, that's the problem here, is that we internalize that kind of colonization, that colonizer mentality that would demonize anything different.
And the number one thing we were told to do in this country was to assimilate. So we came and we were supposed to leave everything behind. Don't ask questions about what abuelita did, you know, in those rooms when she was calling on the spirits. Don't ask about that. And it's like the most interesting thing, right?
[00:07:00] As a kid, you just wanna know that stuff. And they told us, no, you need to be American and be American means like, no, no cool stuff. In my opinion, in my, in my 11 year old opinion, I was like, but what about the ghosts and the spirits and all this stuff? So my reclaiming of the word for myself, I think is just one way.
That a lot of us are doing it, and a lot of us are doing it in different ways, and it means different things to all of us. So it is a really complicated word to define. It's not one thing, it's not one tradition. I focus on kind of the new way we're using it, bruja, bru or bru with the X at the end for the gender neutral term.
Bex: Or is another good one that I really enjoy. That's gender neutral. Yeah. Yeah.
Lorraine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's paralleling the, you know, Latin X, Latin A and we're constantly changing it and bringing up new words. And so I think that's really cool. The way that it's currently evolving, it's, it's completely new.
So we talk about ancestry and we talk about, you know like where we come from, but a lot of it is also brand new traditions that we're creating.
Bex: Can I just say snaps for everything you said? Because. I feel like it's really hard to have like a really honest conversation sometimes about like brujeria because it, it's so layered and it's just so many parts of who we are.
Because just like bruja, we are the products of colonization, you know, and we are constantly being told we're not good enough, or we're constantly being told we have to adapt. And I think that that is one of the best things about my practice is that it has adapted and it's what feels right to me. Like I, I do divination by iPod.
Mm-hmm. CanconNancy. And like, you know, divination by music is something that's so important to me because I realize that. Thank you. But I, REI realize music has been so culturally important, you know, so it's, it's of course me being a first gen, you know, Mexican American, I'm gonna figure out my own ways to do it and I'm like, the iPod is it for me, you know, and so you're so right.
It's about like creating our own traditions as we go and, and. Do you run into the issue where people tell you that you shouldn't use the term broca? Or, or, because it's not like set in the old ways and I'm just like, can't we let ourselves grow? Can't we let ourselves change what feels right for us? Like it just seems like every part of our identity wants to put us in a box.
Lorraine: Yes. And that's the thing, you know? Yeah, for sure. I come up with a lot of complexities when it comes to like saying, I'm just one thing. I, you can't see me on the podcast, but I am a Caucasian presenting person. I look as gringa as you can get. I was always like the little whitest one in my family.
And that is a one way that, you know, this becomes complex for me is that when I'm trying to. You know, create this identity for myself that is an in-between identity. It is, you know based on my ancestry, but it's not the same as my family who grew up in these countries in Colombia and in Cuba, and who are still there and who couldn't leave.
It's completely, it's more privileged for sure. And I've had a lot more freedoms and so it's, it's this in between thing. And I come up to the problem of, on both sides. So on one side, this is not traditional enough. You're not like being authentic enough because these, the roots of some of these traditions are, you know, deep and secret and occulted for a very.
Particular, like important reason is that it was to protect the traditions. So, you know, opening them up to the public or trying to quote unquote reclaim them is problematic to a lot of people who tried to protect them for so many centuries. But then there's others who are like, you know on the other end of the spectrum, like, I, I don't even know.
I just I'm trying to think of an example. What, you know, why, why are you the one to just be American? Why, you know, why are you even trying to do this? You're, you're here and it's, you know, everything is for everyone. So what's the point of, of claiming one thing? We can practice anything so, So the, the, those who are gatekeepers, you can't practice this.
And those who are like you know, everything is for everyone. And I'm kind of in between, you know, I [00:12:00] think that there's a respect that you need to have and there are some close traditions that aren't for me. And every bruja or brus or bru bru needs to find their own way against their own personal boundaries and their family's boundaries and their cultural boundaries.
They're also very specific for each one of us. You're a Mexican American, I'm Cuban, Colombian American. There's different traditions, there's different ways we grew up, and so we all have a very individualized path, but I think we are also connected by that seeking that that magnetic kind of seeking motivation to figure out how to be in between in a way that feels good instead of.
Instead of like how we grew up, where it's like, you don't belong here, but you also don't belong here. You're not Mexican enough, but you're also not American. What are you?
Bex: Okay, I wanna touch on two things that you said because the gatekeeping piece, I, I literally was thinking about this last [00:13:00] night. So divine timing, because it is difficult, right?
Like I'm with you, I'm in the middle because some things do need to be gatekeep. Mm-hmm. One thing that's heavy on my mind is did you know that the tr that somebody trademarked protected by Santa Muerte and protected by Santa Muerte, it's, it's owned now and it's really…
Lorraine: I write about that actually, that's in the book.
Bex: Is it? Oh my God. Ok. So now I have to definitely read the book so it's official now. Cuz before it was just like pending. There was a lot of back and forth about it, but like it is live, they own it. And it's just very heartbreaking because I remember as the, when the po when the podcast started, you know, that was something that we, we covered throughout the show because it was just, I knew people who were involved in like, pushing it back because they're like, this is for the people.
Like, you can't do that. And that's the thing with like, anything legal, you know, it's like you have to keep up with it. If not, eventually [00:14:00] people get their moment to monetize it in a way that's not for everyone. And it's just, I don't know, gatekeeping, I think in gatekeeping in some way should exist because it's just like people, but then people, medicine is for everybody, you know?
I, I feel like I work with Santa Morte because the idea of like living every day, like it could be taken from you is something that not everyone does. So it's like, are you really living or are you just waiting to die? And so that's sort of like the approach of how I live my life. So I don't know, the way that the, for me, the fact that someone could feel like they are entitled to that, that they own that is just like, you're missing the whole point, I think maybe For
sure.
Lorraine: Sure. I don't dunno if you had Christie from Brujas Botanica on your podcast Oh, no. Yeah. I she dealt with, yeah. She, she dealt with this, she was very impacted by this trademark protected by Santa Muerte because she created shirts that said that and she herself, you know, is a disciple of Santa Muerte and all this and she was given a cease and desist.
So, and so that's, that's what we cover in the book. But it's just yeah, one of those very many examples of how spiritual consumerism and capitalism. Come in and steal and own things that shouldn't be owned by certain people or any one person really. And then to the exclusion of the actual like indigenous populations that, from which these traditions came in the first place.
So I do think that that's the line I draw when people ask me. So what's the difference between appreciation and appropriation? And it's this, it's, are you profiting off of something that's not even yours because you saw that it was popular. And in our, in our Law of America, the free market.
Anything's for grabs. So it's legal and possible for you to take anything if it's not already trademarked or claimed. Even though it's, it belongs culturally to the collective or to, you know, a very specific group of people who have tried to protect it. So it's just, it is just messed up. And I, I think that part of the bruja path and what makes the bruja movement a little different than the wider witchcraft feminism is that this is a central part of our discussion and our, our magic and what we do every single day when we work our magic is that these concepts and these problems are, are the work.
You know, it's not about magic for magic's sake. To feel good or to personal empowerment's really important. But it's not just that. It's, it's also cultural empowerment and reclaiming things for the people who, who have been the guardians of those things for so long, and making sure that we proceed with caution and respect even as we make new traditions.
So I do think that there is, There are a lot of witchcraft feminists who are also doing this you know, who come from European traditions, but the consumerized part of witchcraft that has become popular is not putting this at the forefront. Of course, what sells is crystals and they're sparkly, you know, what sells are tarot cards and, and pretty art.
And, you know, that's all beautiful and nice, but it doesn't get to the root issue of the magic.
Bex: Yeah. And the magic is the most, in part, we are the magic, you know, just as these traditions have been able to survive and thrive, like so have we. And so it, I'm glad that you've said that. It's like it, we embody the magic and I think that that is what a lot of.
American and just, and not that, like you said, there's a lot of people who are still very connected to their roots, who practice in a way that is honoring everything that came before them. But I think that's the thing is like in America, so many people are disconnected from those traditions, those roots, so they don't even know where to begin.
They do start with the and sparkly because they don't wanna do that in her work. I also wanna touch on, if you don't know Lisa Martinez, cuz I know that she was along with Christie, someone who was making sure all the paperwork is in order. There were so many people on the backend, you know, that were like, really just trying to stop that.
And if you haven't been connected, she's a ra amazing lady. Just really working on putting the medicine out there for the right reasons. And [00:19:00] that's what gives me faith, right? That there are so many RCAs that are actually trying to help people do the work or help people get to the things that help them do that inner shadow work.
Because it is, sometimes it does feel very consumeristic and you know, I'll see friends who are amazing Bru Hicks, just magic people, literally begging for their life, you know, because they just can't get the resources that a lot of white witches with generational wealth can get. I have a friend who is fighting to get a tumor removed and has some of the best money drawing oil that I've ever, you know, used.
Right. And, and I get it. Like, you know, we, we go for the products and the people that like, have this like large following sometimes, and I'm just like, followings don't mean anything if like, they're not doing what they can with the power and privilege that they have. You know, that's, that's something that I've been running into a lot.
It's Do you ever just feel like [00:20:00] you're playing the game to like get ahead and it's almost like exhausting. Like it's just like at the cost of getting your work seen and recognized. You have to compromise parts of yourself.
Lorraine: Oh my goodness, yes. All the time. So to, to just be able to, you know, get a book deal, for instance, which is very like a mysticize process that's actually really simple, but they, you know, it's all like market.
It's how many followers do you have? You know, like, will you be able to you know, sell this book to millions of followers? It's a different world now where that goes first before substance. It's like the promotion before the thing that. You have to promote the cart before the horse, you know? So I feel all the time this, this feeling of do I still love this work?
Am I still [00:21:00] even doing it? While I'm doing all this promotion? I've been in such a promotion phase the last few years. And that's why I feel calling to get back to the creative work and to get back to the core of my practice. Quietly for, for a good season or two without the social media and all that.
Because I need to remind myself like, oh, there is this root work that I still care about. It's still there. And I think that's what I counsel people when they come to me and ask me how to do work. It's just, it's very quiet and it's very personal at the root. And if you're not doing that first, everything else is a distraction.
You'll be pulled in so many different directions. You'll feel competitive with others, which I think is really It's really disappointing to see, especially like among the bruja community, sometimes competition and like bad blood because people are doing quote unquote the same thing, which I think is impossible.
Nobody's doing the same thing. Everyone's different and there's plenty of room for all of us. And if anything, one of us doing something, you know, opens paths and makes it more possible so. For others, right? So the competition that the market creates is just an unfortunate killer of creativity and of confidence and of this thing that drew us to our practice in the first place, which was a needing to reconnect with what was lost.
And that is still there. That thread is still calling us, and it's calling each one of us in such a very specific, individualized, beautiful way that nobody can take from you. And the work is to get to hear that call and to respond
Bex: That hit me in the feels. That was such an amazing response. Thank you.
Risa: Thanks for that. In fact, you, you sort of started, I was thinking [00:23:00] about asking you this and you, so you've started to answer it, so I'll interject as much as I could just sit back and watch the two of you vibe off each other all day. I do wonder like we have listeners who are from or taking maybe their first step, like I feel like I'm called.
I hear that spirit call. I know that. I come from a culture that, or a generation or maybe there was a grandmother or that, like, I feel like there's a sense that there was someone who knew this, who I'm making the like touchy finger feeling of like new magic, you know, like, or I had a grandmother who, who read tea leaves or, but that's maybe all we have, right?
And particularly if you are from a culture that experienced the violence of colonialism and just being sort of totally ripped apart, your traditions, your culture, your relationship with nature violated over and over and over again. There's just this wound of like, how do I do it? [00:24:00] And it, and maybe the only place I go to try to learn it is Instagram.
Like maybe that's all I have. What would you suggest as those first steps coming in quiet but but also first practices to start to connect with maybe that bruja experience if you are from that culture?
Bex: Would you please start? I'd love to hear your take. Yeah,
Lorraine: sure. So yeah, I certainly don't want to come off as like, you know, Instagram is only superficial.
You know, there's a lot of connection. This book wouldn't have been born without social media. That's how I met everyone. You know, every chapter's a different person's story. And we connected online. And so I do think that online communities are a great resource for beginner witches and bruta. I, I offer in the book the, as the.
As [00:25:00] the entry point for anybody, no matter what tradition you come from, whether you, you know a child of immigrants or your family has been here for many generations. I think that setting up that sacred space for yourself is something, it's a physical manifestation of your, your individual connection to spirit.
And I offer that because that's how I grew up. I always had altars in my home and I naturally just created them as a child, but sometimes they were so simple, they were just a little rock that I collected on a, on a walk little flower, you know, a journal entry. And so I think this is something that anyone can practice, is just making physical, a physical representation of spirit.
I think there's a lot of power in doing that. There's a lot of, you know, reclaiming of control in your life, of creating a space that's just yours, a sacred boundary that. You can feel protected within when your life is in chaos, especially in [00:26:00] those moments. So that's what I offer for the beginning, which is, is and bruja is the ancestral altar for those of you who really have this tradition that you feel disconnected from.
So an altar doesn't have to be ancestral, but I do think if that's your aim and that's your entry point into this work and you're trying to reconnect with that you know, start with what you have. Do you have a photograph of a grandmother? Do you have a practice that you heard about? Is there a book that is going to teach you a little more about a tradition that you're interested in?
That's all for your altar. And can you speak to the dead, you know, through it? Can you, you know, communicate, just start to open your, your voice in that way. It feels really weird sometimes if you've never done it before to go and actually like, Vocalize what you want into the air to your ancestors.
[00:27:00] Just that small practice of letting your voice be heard by yourself, by your spirit community is really empowering. And it took me a long time to even get to that point where I didn't feel weird or dumb, you know, just saying,
Bex: I love your answer and I wanna kinda agree with you. I, I hope that we weren't coming off like Instagram has because it has, it's a portal. It's a portal, you know, like, I feel like you get amazing things from it. But it also has, its like toxic issues. And sometimes that is like keeping really talented people out of the spotlight, you know?
There's amazing people there, you know, but I, I think Instagram's amazing for learning the basics. If you are trying to learn like, oh like my grandmother used to like candles. I want to connect with that. [00:28:00] Learning the meanings of all the colors. You know, if you don't know that basic herb stuff, I always just recommend that if you're getting information on Instagram, you should always just like double check your information.
Mm-hmm. And now there's so many reading you can get books and, and so Instagram is amazing cuz you can also like see what someone else's practice kind of looks like. And, you know, I, I think it's amazing to be influenced by other people. I think that that's a skill that spirit speaks to you. But I think where, you know, for me, like where it gets complicated is when you're exactly copying people.
And I think that that is sort of an issue that social media creates, but alters, like Lorraine said, are amazing place to start. I always recommend like starting to look up herbs and like plants and. Things that either had some type of family connection. All my work is ancestral. Really, so I feel like for me it was getting down to basics.
It's like, what do I know about my family and the things that they use in their [00:29:00] everyday life that I can incorporate some way in magic? And a book I wanna recommend it's by Lara Davila and it's called Mexican Sorcery Bru. And it's amazing because it shows you that there are so many things that you can just do in your, in your, you know, from your household kitchen.
And I think that that's the thing is that sometimes witch consumerism makes us feel. We have to get all of these things and have the most complicated arsenal of witchcraft. And that's not true. You know, you use what you need, you have a lemon, you have garlic, you have. Salt. You have whatever, you know, you, you figure out a way to utilize that, to really bring the reality that you are trying to bring.
And sometimes it is by like praying over it and asking your abuela, your buela, all of these people who came before you to help you. And sometimes it's asking the universe, sometimes it's asking, I don't know, maybe you had a stuffed animal that you were very partial to as a kid that's now [00:30:00] disappeared and you still speak to its spirit.
I don't know. Whatever, whatever connecting to something feels like for you, you know? And for me, it's my ancestors. For some people it's the universe. For some people it's deities, you know? It's just whatever calls to you
Lorraine: for sure. I, I love, I love that what you said about. Instagram being a good reference point and an inspiration point.
But just like anything online, you need to do your own work and make sure you vet the ideas, because there's a misinformation everywhere. So just make sure that you're also connecting to some really good sources. And this is where my academic self and my teacher self comes in. I'm like, where are your sources?
You know, that's, make sure you do your due diligence, you know, and if you're gonna be a serious guha, you know, you're, you're doing that work as well. And I do think it's good to connect to anything that makes you feel like creative, that's waking up that creative energy inside of [00:31:00] you. And we all have that.
We are all creative in some way. I think to me, that's always been very close to spirit for me. Is, what are you creating that's so special to you? Creativity can take so many forms, and for me it's always been the written word. So I journal at my altar and I I write every time I'm there. But for others it could be painting or it could be things that we don't necessarily see as creative.
It could be organizing a drawer, you know, it's getting, it's, it's the, you know, witchcraft has always been about personal power. It's it's empowerment. It's, it's getting control and power back in your own hands. And I think it is always good to start with what feels good and feels easy and what feels like yours.
So I like what you said about which is all about. Your, your home, your [00:32:00] immediate surrounds. There's weeds that you could use outside for smoke bundles. You don't have to use sage. You know, sage has been misappropriated over, harvested, taken from indigenous communities. So let's think twice before we use that.
This is just an example and maybe you use the Spanish needle that's right outside your yard cuz it's antibacterial, antiviral too. You know, it's, it has cool properties and it's right there. It's for you, it's magical, you know, manifestation of the universe just for you. So I, I like that idea of just starting with what you, what, what you know, what you have and going from there.
Amy: I wanna return to this notion of power and control, because Bex, I know something that's very important for you in your work is underscoring this, like the thievery, and we can call it appropriation, but the theft of marginalized witches and their practices. And I kind of wanna throw this question to Lorraine because you have a chapter in BRUJAS called White Witches that's not accusatory.It's, you know, you're, you're investigating your own scare quotes, white passing and, and what that means. But I really wanna know from both of you, like what good allyship looks like, and, and specifically Lorraine, why was it important for you to put this white witch's chapter in your book?
Lorraine: Oh, dang. So that's like the most the most what is it called?Contentious. Chapter in the book where I get the most comments. People either stop reading the book at that point cuz they're so offended. Yeah. Or they're like, yeah, I'm like clapping. You know, and, and like it's cheering for me. And I think it's really, I think I must have hit a good chord and I must be doing something right because I get a criticism for extreme opposite ends of the spectrum.
Like, why are you even talking about this? This should be a non-issue race, you know, should not even be an issue here. I, and on the other hand I get, you know, the opposite. Why did you even think you could write this book? You're too white for it. So, so I have people saying, you know, you, you shouldn't even be talking about white passing.
You are, you know, you are from these traditions and you're completely empowered to write about this. And other people who, who will look at the flap of my book and see my face and say, I'm not reading this because. You know a white person shouldn't be writing this, and I respect that a hundred percent.
And so I, but I am who I am and I do think that I I sh I, I can, I, I have a right to be here. And so that's what this very weird, complicated chapter is about. It's about the hard work that I did on my end in my practice to [00:35:00] face the, in betweenness of my own bruja identity. I tried to approach this very complicated topic, you know, very controversial topic through my own personal experience.
I think I, in rereading it, I think in some parts I do go into like, kind of like a luxury tone and I can't stand it, but please forgive me that, but I do still stand by. The fact that people like me who are in the in between, that's where our magic is. We we have a responsibility to face this, these spaces where we're not invited sometimes and to accept them and to our work is maybe to not reclaim so much as it is to unsettle, maybe like unsettle what we think are neat boundaries, you know, of belonging.
And for me, I, I had to unsettle this neat history I had about my great-grandmother doing her work. She was a spirit medium in Cuba and she channeled African spirits, but she, like me was, you know, light-skinned and she and her in her life. Was racist. I mean, just to put it bluntly, right? And so it's, it me, my reclaiming my tradition through her must involve, like, dealing with those issues is okay, she was taken from the law, you know, she was taken from, which are like the spirits, the African spirits, you know from in Santeria, the Orishas, you know, she was, she was borrowing from these really powerful magics and making a living off of them.[00:37:00]
And am I doing the same thing? I would like not to. So instead of my reclaiming myself and like as like the descendant of this long line of witches and I have all this power, it's more like, oh dang, that I am the descendant of. You know, complicated histories that meld together, the Spanish colonizer and the Afro Indigenous, you know, native to, to the countries where my parents come from.
They, I'm somewhere in between those two threads. I'm the product of mixing and so, so our, most of us, right. So power to me means just having my eyes open and seeing that clearly. And, but it's, it's, it's hard work. It's what we call shadow work because it makes you come up to your badies. It makes you have to deal [00:38:00] with complicated emotions that don't feel good.
It's like icky, sticky emotions. And. I think it makes people feel icky and sticky when they read it, no matter where they're coming from. So that's the chapter that really, I guess, triggers lots of people.
Bex: Oh my God. I wanna expand upon what you said because we, like, people might not be able to see this, but again, I'm very like light skin too.
And I feel like it is the realization that we embody like both of the oppressed and the oppressor because like we didn't get this light just out of, you know, thin air and Right. That's a heavy conversation and I don't know. It's what I feel like Americans, and a lot of maybe Canadians too maybe don't understand is that it's such a layered existence because there's, like you said, all of these things inside of us that we kind of carry.
There's this thing that when you heal yourself, you heal [00:39:00] seven generations forward and seven generations back. And there's a lot of inner stuff like sometimes. My mom was the darkest person in her family and just the, the things that she had said to her by her, because it's, it's all this sense of like, at sometimes othering other people for the sense of like, well, I know who I am because we don't know where we come from.
You know, a lot of us could do ancestry tests and there'd be, you know, what would come up would be so surprising. I've, it's so weird that you can have like lighter skin, but you might come up with like 55% African and you're just like, how? And, and, and it's, because a lot of times people didn't wanna talk about like, what was there.
I I, I don't know a whole lot about the colonization process of, of Cuba or of Columbia. Still have to, excuse me. But in Mexico, the caste system was like 16 tiers because they like dei, which I imagine it was all new Spain. So it would be very similar if not the, if not the same, but [00:40:00] 16 tiers to from like you are a Spaniard.
Who was from Spain, but you might live here, you know, and then all the way to this is what you are here. And so there is all of this internal, like judging of ourselves and other people and what is good enough and what's not good enough. And I think that that's just a curse that we have as unfortunately the product of colonization.
But I think that since we are like lighter and we do embody a lot of these things, I think it is important for us to be in the spaces to also like expose things that still happen to this day. A lot of the theft and a lot of the, the toxic behaviors that, that people just feel like they're entitled to and ma and it's because of their privilege.
You know, I, I hate to say this, but a lot of times white women I would say it can be worse than white men because white men have never really been oppressed in that way. So it's like they can yield over their power in a way that's more sharing. Whereas I feel like white women always have to like pull it back.
It's like, but. I want to be in control. I have to be in control. And that comes from a place of not being able to share their power. And I don't know, I, I'm a tarot reader at times. And I had an event where I had another tarot reader that was there who, who was the younger, like white witch. She was very sweet, or at least it seems so.
And then her partner got a reading from me and then later, because a witch always finds out, someone made a text about how she was doing her readings. And it was the exact same as how I was doing my readings. Like I, I typically use the combination of a tarot and Oracle deck, but even down to the language she was using.
And I'm like, you couldn't even move it around a little bit and cheat properly to not get caught. And I'm just like, You really thought I was that unaware and I'm, I'm just like, if people are doing this in, in [00:42:00] spiritual, in witchy communities, like I just imagine how bad it is and, you know, and I've worked in corporate America, you know, but it's just, it really kind of like breaks your heart.
It's like you should know better. You're supposed to be a spiritualist or whatever, you know? And so I think it is sort of like we are meant to do some of this work to expose some of this because it is so prevalent. You and your book had to have a whole chapter about it. You know, like, this is happening more than we'd like to admit.
And to kind of answer like, what does a good ally look like? I feel like for me, right, if I can tell you that something happened and you don't automatically, well, what if, and, and you start what if? And making excuses for the person. I feel like you are at least a decent ally. You know, you don't have to have it explained to you.
How to stand by someone who has had this thing happen to them. Because I think that that's the thing too, is that like [00:43:00] white supremacy has taught us that there has to be all this evidence and proof and whatever, but it's also just like if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, maybe we should just say it's a fucking duck.
You know? And so there we have to do some of this unlearning too, and just at times to like trust our fellow witch, you know, to really stand by her and be like, I believe you, this happened. How are we going to like process the aftermath? Like what does that look like for you? Do you need to just vent and get it all outta your system?
Or do we need to do something? You know? And I feel like that for me is an ally. Someone who is constantly in the trenches with us and is like an accomplice in how to undo white supremacy.
Lorraine: I approach allyship from a perspective of. The person outside in the book. So how to be an ally? Like I, I'm thinking of myself even as an outsider because I have been in spaces and that chapter goes through that where I was excluded and told I didn't belong there.
And I think part of being an ally is just accepting that where you don't have consent, you know? I think it's simple on like, even if you feel like you belong somewhere, It really is all about relationship. And if you're told you don't, then, then you don't because it's a relationship and that that other half of that relationship is not there.
So for me, yeah, I feel like I, I, you know, come from these places where I'm, I am different than somebody whose family was here for generations and generations, but at the same time, I am white presenting and there are places where I am not accepted or invited, and I, you know, knocked on those doors for the book.
I, I didn't want to exclude anyone, so I knocked on some doors, you know, metaphorically and physically. And some of them were shut, you [00:45:00] know, and rather than barge in or try to like write my way through it, I was just like, okay, I guess I'm not writing about that. That's not for me. You know? So I think I offer I think at the, at the end of that chapter on white witches, like how to be an ally because there's little rituals and practices at the end of each chapter.
And, and my main, I guess my main theme there is consent. It, I think it's so important in every relationship. It's like the core of every of trust is are we, are we both in this, you know, and there are some spaces, there are some spaces where I did stand up for myself and I said, wait, but wait a second, this and this and this.
And then people listened and, you know, I was, I was allowed to be there. And then we created something together. And certainly with the book, I didn't want it to just be my memoir cuz I have such an individual specific path, like everyone. So I tried to include as many people as possible. So every chapter is a [00:46:00] different person's story and that was consensual as well.
So I think that's what it is to be an ally, is to like, not overburden. Others by your presence. You know, like, I'm here, let me in, let me in. You know, it's like kinda annoying. It's annoying at like, at minimum and at the worst end of the spectrum, it could be dangerous, you know? So, you know, I go into in the chapter I talk about who do and voodoo specifically with this because they are African practices, and I think that's, that's worked for maybe another person and not me.
So there are boundaries and that's, that's where I think allyship is all about, is understanding boundaries.
Bex: Yeah. And I do want to thank you for saying that because it's true. Boundaries are so important and there are spaces that we're just not allowed. And I'm actually like, It's good for people, for standing up for themselves and just being like, listen, you trigger me.
Like cuz that sometimes is what it is. You know, we, we trigger them for whatever reason in, in their life experience and I don't wanna be somewhere that I shouldn't be where I am going to upset people. And that is such a bottom line for me that is sort of just like, I will not, I always ask permission and I feel like that is sometimes what a lot of folks don't understand is that we, we need to ask permission to be there.
And like you said, if they're like, we don't want you here, being okay with that and not taking it personally because it's not always personal, you know, it's just like we want to be able to have this safe space that we don't feel like we would have with you. Yeah. My, my thought is on, on it is if I'm having these conversations with you, I've already like trusted you.
Like, it's just like, and I appreciate the knowledge that. White witches do bring into my life cuz I have so many like friends who do really help me see [00:48:00] and understand nuances that I feel like I don't understand. And it, it is important to have that buffer who can, in some ways I always joke be my like my fair lady.
It's like, please help me like in white culture, you know, because I don't always get it. And she's like, yeah, no, we got you.
Risa: I wanna pick up the word accomplice. I love that, especially in the context of witches brujas magic makers. I loved you said earlier, Lorraine, that we, how do we get comfortable being in between or how do we find a way to be in between that feels okay? And I love that because that's not about how do we get into the.
Into the mainstream. It's like, how do we own that? We're not, that we're on this outsider path and we're sort of on it together, sort of not, you know, like we're sort of reaching out and celebrating each other's outsiderness. And [00:49:00] I wanna go further than allyship, you know, I wanna be a fucking accomplice.
You know, I wanna like, I wanna, I wanna be an anti-racist, anti-capitalist spanner in the works with other witches. You know? I wanna fuck that shit up and, and, and help, help give birth to something new. You know? I want us to be together for the re-enchantment and not for the fucking apocalypse. So what does that look like?
Like how do we, how do we call out that magic, that resistance magic, that accomplice magic? What does that look like from your perspective, or your family, or your culture, or the top of your head?
Lorraine: That's so beautiful. I love that so much because ultimately, like, and I worry about this all the time when I talk about these topics, that I'm alienating somebody, you know?
Because witches of all kinds are all outsiders, we're all called to this work because we didn't fit into the mainstream. And I hate seeing us, you know, hold each other up as the enemy. And this happens with feminism all the time because I, you know, witchcraft, feminism, mirrors larger feminist movements.
But I think we're getting there, you know, I think we're starting to understand that joining together and making space for each other is where the magic is, even though it's hard and complicated. And I think it's just like any wounded animal, you know, like we're, we're, when our defences are up, it's just cuz we, we were traumatized in some way.
And so when someone that's kind of. Like us or doing the same thing as us approaches us. We're just kind of like defence mode, you know? And I think the work for me is to drop those defences more and more and just be kind to myself and be kind to others and inviting as much as possible, you know, within limits.
It's, it's important to know what's, you know, what's dangerous and where you should have your boundaries because of, of course, this work. You know, a lot of us are empaths, a lot of us are open and see, and hear and feel so much more than just the material world. And so if we don't have our boundaries, we can get pretty fucked up.
But, you know, I, I do think my work in, in the next chapter of my life is to, is to drop defences and, you know, be open and make mistakes and be kind of like bumbly like. We're not all poised and you know, we're not all like Instagram ready all the time. I ramble a lot, you know, and I'm, I, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing a lot of the time.
And that's part of like, the fun of it, is that we're all making this new thing, so we're not all always doing it right? So let's just fuck it up together. Let, let's, like you said, fuck it up together. Like fuck up with dumb, but also just like, fuck it up and make a mess of [00:52:00] it.
Risa: Oh my gosh, I love that so much.
I love the next, the next project stage of my life is to be bumbly. I feel, I feel that so deeply.
Lorraine: Yeah. Cause it's just like, it's like going back to childhood, right? I, I do feel like I have a thesis brewing that like we're all our 11 year old selves, or at least we like the same things that we did when we were 11.
And if we can just show our 11 year old selves to each other We weren't, you didn't care what, like, what the presentation was or like, what the outcome would be. We were just like, Hey, look at this bug. Isn't it cool? And then we'd like, and then we'd fall off a tree and get her and just scream and cry.
Bex: I regularly say that, but about my eight year old self, it's just like we've all become more feral versions of that eight year old self. But with disposable income now, the things I like now are pretty much the same. If I could have like Spice World just on repeat in the background everywhere I go, [00:53:00] like, you know, that would be amazing, but I don't, but you know, one day I think that it's so important that we are having these conversations with our inner selves because I feel like a lot of the work that we do is around making this world safe for that younger version of ourselves that really just needed, you know, more love, more attention.
What, what have you. I always just think about I, lately I've been really interested in the mother wound. And, you know, because a lot of our, our issues come back from our grandmother and, and I just think about like the ways that we are healing our family lines and becoming accomplices to ourselves, right?
Because I feel like a lot of us, how can we be accomplices for other people if we don't even know how to advocate and how to really fuck shit up for ourselves? Like mm-hmm. You know, and, and part of being bumbly is making mistakes and maybe sending that risky text or, or you know, like having that conversation that you've been so worried about, like, well, what happens if it [00:54:00] gets weird?
It's like, let it get weird. You know? Like, are you really even living in your witch experience? If you're always just like, but what if, what if, what if? What if? What if, what if? Well, just, what if you do it? You know, like I, I feel like I'm always the dangerous friend that encourages people to just, well, what if you do it?
But what if you do it though? Like, someone will be like, I'm really into pottery. What if I quit my job? And like, and I'm like, but what if you do it though? But my thought is like, okay, but let's think about how to properly do it. We're not just gonna quit. We're gonna have a plan. You know, I always tell my friends, do not tell me your hopes and dreams if you're not trying to actually make them happen.
Because if anything, I'm gonna get frustrated with you cuz I'm the one pushing you and you're annoyed or something. You know, like, because I, I just feel like everything that I put my seeds into, like, so to speak, like, and I plant, like they start happening shit with like the podcasting and then, and combining my, my witchy pursuits and interests and like my audio work that started three years ago.
And I'd [00:55:00] been like, all right, you have three years because that's the most you can have this domain for. If you can't do it in three years, then you're not meant to do it. And now I'm having opportunities to talk to other witches about like, our work. So it's just like, Do it. You know what if you do it, what if you give yourself a timeline?
And what if you're happy? You know
Amy: what, if you're happy leads me to one of my favorite subjects that I, I really need to bring up. And that's again, spice World. What if you were happy? All of these things. One of my favorite subjects, and again, Lorraine, you have a chapter about this in your book, gratefully, thankfully.
So I, I would love to hear be's thoughts as well. I think there's this misconception that, you know, anger is the only emotional path to resistance. And I wanna talk about joy as resistance and joyful resistance. Can you bubble up with some joyful resistance?
Lorraine: Yeah. So kind of hopping on what Beck was [00:56:00] saying about just doing something, I think it's important to just do things that.
You're called to because you just love them without worrying about the outcome too much. I mean, of course, we live in a world where we have to think about how we're ma making our bills, and is this practical and all that as part of being an adult, unfortunately. But at the core of it, if you're not enjoying your life, I, I, you know, I just don't think any of that matters.
So I think if you've, if you've decided to live this life, this witchcraft life, this witchy life it is already, it's the, it's core is resistance, right? It's, we're not doing this the way you've told us to do things. We're not going by the institution, so we must build it on what we love. Like what else is there, right?
So we, we are drawn to this because we just love it. We're full of wonder for it. And so [00:57:00] I think especially for people who's. Families have been oppressed and have been kept from practicing their magic, have been kept from even communing with their families have been separated from their families.
And this is happening right now in this country at the border, you know, and we have a candidate for president who shall not be named from my state of Florida, who, you know, has built his platform on, you know, infringing on the rights of immigrants. And this is, it's, it's more important now than ever that we stand in our power through our joy and whatever that looks like for us, because that's telling them like, you are not controlling my life.
You know, there are things that I have to reckon with. There are realities, but I, I still have control over my love. And what I love and what [00:58:00] I do with my love. So what is that for you? For me it is reading books and going out in my garden and keeping my bees and being with my animals and, and slowly making my family a new family that is built out of love and not fear.
That is so hard to do. It's so hard not to be scared. So any moment. And it's okay to be scared also, it's okay that if joy doesn't come naturally, it's, it's a, it's a muscle. We have to learn how to exercise, so it's a, it's okay not to if you're depressed, you know? I wanna make that clear because I've been depressed so much of my life.
But joy is a something that builds on itself. As you feed it, it just gets stronger and stronger and stronger. And it, it becomes easier to feel the more attention you give it. And [00:59:00] so I'm spending the summer chasing my joy. I, I have the great privilege of doing that. After a few years of working really hard and too much working too much, I think I feel lucky that I can take this time and because I have it, I'm going to take it cuz other, my inclination is to fill it with more work cuz I'm a Capricorn rising.
That's another conversation for another day. But I, I'm going to give it my, give me myself time to just be out in a nice summer. I'm going to the Pacific Northwest where it's not hot and I'm going to look at the water and look at the trees and see what comes. I'm not trying to overplan it and I'm gonna see like what creativity bubbles up.
That's my joy this year.
Bex: I love that. And I, I really love what you said about like joy being a muscle that like not everyone is super used to flexing and I feel like it's because so many of us, like are, were come from an a place of like having to exist in survival mode. And you kind of said that like so many people are so, at least they're, they're, they're taken up, their lives are taken up by work and they figure out more ways to like, oh, well what if I can do this?
And, and that does come from like a mindset of like having to really hustle and survive. But I also really recommend to people that if they're in, they find themselves in a space of doing this, it's hard to stop. I'm, I'm trying to be better about it myself, but. The more that you stick to your relationship with money and that it's scarce and, and, and you have to always be like working for it the way that's how it's gonna be, you know?
And finding my joy in creating more time for self myself. Like I have really been reevaluating my relationship with money. And if I tell myself, be a little delusional, is what I always tell witches is like, just tell yourself that you have everything you need and that it finds you easily all of the time and [01:01:00] opportunities come to you because if you don't change your mindset, You're going to continue to make it be that way.
You know, I think that which is, we don't realize we have so much power as Bruta bru, bru, bru, sorry, I'm like trying to say bruja and brujita. But you know, we have to really live the life that we wanna live and that is changing our mindset. So if joy doesn't come easy for you, figuring out ways to do that.
If money doesn't come easy for you, figuring out ways to relax your relationship with it. I also just feel like anything that is worth having, you can't hold onto like tight, you know, cuz it's gonna kill the joy associated with it. And I think a lot of young people, millennials and Gen Z is like, they feel like the things that bring them joy, their hobbies, then have to become a way to make money.
Yes. And it's such a, it's such a damning space to be in. You know, I, I stopped doing that, like with my hobbies. If I don't enjoy it anymore, I don't do it. And that's [01:02:00] just, that is what it is. You know, whether it made me money or not, you have to be willing to walk away from the things that you've built when it just doesn't serve you anymore.
Lorraine: So, yes, it's okay to have hobbies and they don't mean anything other than they're fun. You can, you can do something for a couple days and then never do them again. It's okay. That is such a, that's such a gig economy, like being, you know, coming of age in the recession thing that I'm unlearning is that scarcity mindset where, you know, money is real and money limitations are real.
And, you know, having gone through really difficult financial times during that recession, like 10 years ago, God, I, at one point I was working at a Cracker Barrel and a call center at the same time while doing my masters and being in an abusive relationship, that was like shitty, shitty time of my life.
And if someone had come in and been like, Just you have a scarcity mentality, darling. Just believe in, in that you can have more. I would've bitten their fucking head off, but you know, but it is. What did I do during that time? I did find my joy and that joy was a thread that led me out of there. And my joy was school and I learned philosophy and literature and I just poured myself into that.
That made me feel wonderful. I loved it, and it was for no other reason, cuz at that point the economy was in such shambles that I didn't think anything could get me out of it. So I was just, I was like, you know what? I went to school to get a job and that didn't work, so I'm just gonna go to school for what I love.
And that's what, that's the thread that led me here, you know, out and, and dug me out of that situation eventually. And it wasn't because it led to this magical job. I still don't have a job, y'all. It it, it was just, you know, you find yourself, you find your community, you find your opportunities through what you love.
It's never through what you fear or what you hate. That's never, that's always gonna be dead ends. So, you know, any way you can feel your fear, feel your anger, but then soothe yourself with comfort, the comforts of what you love. Those things will be the helping hands, I think.
Bex: Yeah. And I also just like, I don't like operating out of a place of fear.
It's just really not good for me. I feel like it's not good for my skin. And I know it's like hard for people to, like, people who are in terrible situations. Like, I don't want this to sound like callous or whatever, but it, you have to imagine a way out because if you don't, you're, you are, you're just trapped.
And I just, we don't have to live like victims and we don't have to be. Trapped. And you're right, community is so important. I always tell people that like mutual aid is the most powerful thing at our disposal. Being able to help each other, being able to actually say, I need help because mm-hmm.
That first that we carry too, you know, is that we can't ask for help or we feel weak or, and I'm just like, everyone struggles. You know? And I think that that's something with like Instagram too is like, we always see the best of people's lives and that then gives people the, the opportunity. It's like, well, how is she affording Europe if things are so bad?
How is she affording this? How is she affording that? It's just like, huh, you know, wrong questions. Wrong questions.
Lorraine: Yeah. Yeah, and I've been there, I've been there like the, the envy sets and you're like, why can't I have that? You know, what's wrong with me? Like, they don't understand. And I do still struggle with that, and I feel the little victim voice coming and I like treat it like a little child.
I'm like, oh, they're there. I have a little sandwich. You're okay.
Bex: It's OK to be curious. Let's leave it alone.
Lorraine: Yeah. And you know, it's particularly hard when we come from families that perpetuate that victimhood or like, once you get a little success, like there's maybe jealousy or like this, this sense that like, oh, but you, you still like a reminder that we still came from little, you know, [01:06:00] and it manifests in my family with hoarding.
I know this is kind of a tangent, but it's like the hoarding is a reminder that like, oh, we're not quite okay. We have a lot, but it's too much now. You know? And it's like, so. So I feel like I'm getting free, right? But then my mom will send me big smash boxes full of stuff. She can't stop doing it.
She just keeps sending them. I ask her to stop. She just keeps sending them. And so I'm be, I'm drowning in her fear and her lack and her, you know, addiction to the cycle of poverty and wealth and capitalism and all that, that I feel like I've escaped and I found my joy. And, but then there's that like little reminder that like, it's still there.
And so if you are in a family that reminds you all the time, or like unhealed people are in your family, like that's okay too. It's okay for you to have joy, even if your parents don't yet or ever, you know it starts with you and boundaries. I open the box at the foyer. I take a couple items and I donate the rest instead of drowning in it.
It's just a little metaphor I think, that I'm working with right now.
Bex: Okay. I'm really glad that you brought up the hoarding thing because I feel like that's a, across like the lithium community, that's something that we do share because I also feel like it's this place of like their inner child just having the opportunity to have all of the stuff they couldn't have at one point.
And so it just brings them so much joy to have it, and then they're like, oh no, I messed up. And you know, they'll pass it on to you. And they're like but I was just having this conversation about how this is a common thing and they're like, do you think I'm like, yes. I do think that co that hoarding is a common thing because it's, it's sort of adjusting from that, like have not having anything to having so much and like yeah, like you [01:08:00] said, a little reminder of, oh, well what if we need this and whatever.
And there's so many things that I feel like I wish the. Latin community would realize, would be so much more beneficial to them instead of operating outta that place of fear and being worried about having conversations. And, and, and I understand where that comes from because like it's those survival tactics, right?
Like if the, the people in charge the Spanish or, or then police officers or any type of like structure we're asking questions, you could like just be like, oh no, everything's cool, everything's whatever. But it's like we have to undo that like thought process of like, if we bring anybody in from the outside, it's going to cause issues, you know?
Because the reality is, is that patriarchy thrives when it's like religion, government, and family are the three structures that have all the control. And I don't know, sometimes old ways die hard, you know? And I feel like for any Latin person out there who is seeking like. For any type of, like, issues with their mental health.
Like I really do commend you because I remember when I first started seeking that out, it was like all a joke because my parents couldn't really processing what was going on. They're like, are you gonna kill us in the middle of the night? I'm, oh my goodness. Like, what? I'm like, I don't think it's that serious.
I think I'm just a little sad all the time. But it, it's you know, it's like, I don't know, I always say about Mexicans is that we can take nothing seriously, and therefore, like nothing is serious. But everything can be, you know, serious. So it's, it's finding that. That space, you know, where if you don't have that support system within your family, finding it in other places.
And I'm sorry I went on, on this whole tangent, but I'll, I think it's all relevant too.
Lorraine: Yes. To, to connect it back to joy. It's, it's not about ignoring pain and like, so our generational trauma, like all [01:10:00] that stuff, it's all part of the joy process. It's, we, you know, we say we need help. Like I need, I need to go to therapy.
And this is something that's super stigmatized in Latin A communities is like, you know, getting help. It means you're weak. It means you're, you're vulnerable. It means something's wrong with you. And so the first step towards my joy was telling my parents, you know, like, I'm not, I'm not totally okay with what happened growing up and I'm gonna go get therapy for it.
And I am on medicine now and, you know, and just listening to them, you know, respond to it in ways that would trigger me before, but understanding that they're coming from an unhealed space as well, and they haven't gotten that therapy, you know, and so I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe something is wrong with me mom.
You know, maybe like, you know, she says, I not, you know, like, you're, you're totally fine. You're like, that's the mentality is like, you know, the, the toxic positivity is like, you are fine, you're [01:11:00] fine even when you're not fine. No. So, so I think joy is honesty as well. Honesty with what's not fine.
Bex: Yeah. No, and you're, and I think that the hard thing too is like, because watching us get.
Help for our issues also, like makes them start to think. It's like, well, did I have it that bad? And the reality is like, yeah, you probably did. My mom was one in 12. So there's a lot, there's a smorgasbord of things there, you know? But she, I I, I think it's powerful because like as I heal, I see her healing and no longer accepting some of the things.
But I also just, like, my sister reminds me all the time, she's like, you know, you're not, and, and, and I think that that is important is knowing like what your limits are in the ways that things just are set up. There's that quote that's like personality decontextualize you know, and it's, it's, and, and then like personnel or community decontextualized and culture and it, and how [01:12:00] all of these things present so many things that we've just accepted too, as a way of like surviving and.
I know. Yeah. We're just not, a lot of us are just not in that space where we want to just survive. We wanna thrive. So we are decontextualizing culture and how it impacts us and it's powerful.
Amy: Yes. I also wanna thank you, Bex, for It's okay to be a little delusional. This is the permission that I've been waiting for my entire life and I really, really, really appreciate that.
It's okay. A little delusion is gonna help us find our joy. Just a little bit. Just a little bit.
So I, I like to ask this, like, if you could slap a bumper sticker on the, on the car of the missing witch's coven as we drive through the universe, what, what message? Like what short message would you want your, your bumper sticker on the missing witch's car to say.[01:13:00]
Bex: Be gay, do crime.
Amy: Love it. Thank you. Thank you, John Waters forever. John Waters is, you know, one of the patron saints of my entire life. So thank you. Be gay. Do crime the life of a heterosexual is a miserable, and boring existence.
Lorraine: Mine would be. What would your 11 year old self do?
Amy: Let's spend some time with our 11 year old selves. Or eight year old whatever, or eight or whichever, whichever that number is,
Risa: let's put that kid on, on the altar too, you know, along with the ancestors, wherever that place was, where you had that childhood joy can talk out loud to them too, while we talk to our grandparents and our parents.
All that shit that I can't really say to my parents are, I found ways to [01:14:00] say by writing it first or saying it out loud in an altar or saying it to a fire, and then when the time came, it just came out in the way that it needed to. Maybe the way that they could hear it or maybe not, but I think, yeah, let's, let's speak some joy and, and some joyful truth wherever we can, and especially to those little kids.
Amy: And Bex, Lorraine, I want individually to ask you, I'm sure our listeners have fallen in love with you if they hadn't already encountered your work before. So Bex, can you tell us how they can shower you with attention and abundance?
Bex: Yes. I always love abundance. Just rain on me. If you, you know, found something interesting about my work definitely you can check out my website which is beby casting.com.
That's also my personal Instagram and like social media handle, but I do most of my work onca their [01:15:00] Instagram page. You can find me on TikTok. I'm always like unpacking something. It's funny, that's what I like about TikTok is I'm like, this is where we trauma dump So I spend a lot of time on there.
Also I do in-person readings. If you're in the St. Louis area at sincerely the craft, I'm a house switch there. If you need some advice on a spell, pop on in, I can help you. And I do virtual readings and yeah, you can find me in all those places or maybe just like, call to the wind and there I will be.
Lorraine: And you can find me on Witchy Heights on Instagram. I am working on a website. I am a Luddite witch. Again, I'm an analog witch, so I'm working on it y'all. But for now, DMing me on at Witchy Heights on Instagram is the easiest, fastest way to get to me. If you'd like to support my work, the best way at the moment is to buy a copy of brujas.
For those of you who are on video, here it is yeah, so it's in paperback now at all major book sellers or your indie bookstore. If you don't see it, please ask for it. That's always really helpful. And leaving reviews, honest reviews. I can handle it, but any review is really important for my work as I start to work on my next book.
And, you know, I'll eventually need to sell that one as well. So sell my soul. So, yeah I hope you'll follow along. I will be posting a lot more. I'll be launching a Patreon for since I'm going into hermit mode, that will be a way that you might support my work until I emerge again.
Amy: So again, the title of the book is Brujas, the Magic and Power of Witches of Color, by Lorraine Monteagut, and Ti Tua Bruja is the podcast by Bex Carlos, thank you so much for being in this circle of joy and resistance and allyship and delusion. It's been a wonderful way to jump into summer, and I'm, I'm so grateful that you both joined us today.
Bex: Yes. Thank you so
Lorraine: much.
Risa: Thank you for being here and being so fucking rad.
Blessed Fucking be
Amy: happy, Litha. Blessed Fucking be.
If you want to support the Missing Witches project, find out how@missingwitches.com. Pre-order New Moon Magic. 13 anti-capitalist tools for resistance and re-enchantment
"It's important that we stand in our power through Joy."
Lorraine Monteagut
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